REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

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REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:15 am

Hello fellow Atarians,

this topic of how 'Jack Tramiel invest (loaned) $500.000 in Amiga to get chips for his new Atari computer' spread like a plague all over internet.
Please read complete true story of events before continue - it is part from Curt Vendel and Marty Goldberg book "Atari Inc: Business is Fun"

Atari In. Amiga Corp. contract (PDF)

It bother me much so I would like use this topic to 1) write down list of all URLs where this lies exist and 2) to make list of all authors who claim this lie 3) to ask all of you to help me assembling and documenting these authors and URLs (I add screenshots as attachment).

Code: Select all

No.) Publishing date (DD.MM.YYYY.), [b]author (nickname), [i]title, [b]site,
url
[list][size=85]quote
---
notes


FALSE STORYES:

1) 22.10.2007. Jeremy Reimer "A history of the Amiga, part 4: Enter Commodore" www.ArsTechnica.com
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/10/ ... ore-years/
    "Before Tramiel had left, Commodore had already engaged in halfhearted talks to purchase the struggling Amiga, Inc., but nothing had come from them. Atari was developing a new personal computer and game console and wanted access to the Amiga chipset. The initial offer was for $3 a share and kept getting lower. When it hit 98¢ per share, both sides walked away from the table. It was at this point that Atari "loaned" Amiga $500,000 to continue operations for a few more months.

    This poisonous deal was put together by none other than Jack Tramiel, who had managed to purchase Atari's computer division after being kicked out of Commodore. "
    ---
    27.10.2016. I email author. He response: "My source for Tramiel being behind the deal was Brian Bagnall's book Commodore: On the Edge, and he cites other sources for that incident. Out of curiosity, if Tramiel wasn't behind the deal, who was?". I send a link to book paragraph 'Atari Inc: Business is Fun' (by Curt V. and Marty G.) he replay: "I haven't read the book you linked, but I will order it. It's too bad there isn't an ebook version available."

    more:

    "In the end, as is often the case when battling your financiers, the money people won. Jack Tramiel was forced out of his own company by the board of directors in late 1983."
    ---
    Jack was not " forced out by the board of directors" - after confronting and not finding mutual solution with Irvin Gould, he leave company.


2) 7.1.2017. Zach Weddington "Viva Amiga" documentary www.amigafilm.com
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6398570/
    @15:25 R J Mical start his usual story: "He have this great technology (Amiga), created this awesome new computer that seemed unreal..." (yata yata yata... usual stuff if you watch R J Mical before...) and he continue "if company is going to stay afloat, we would have to sell it to the someone"
    than movie continue and Jack Tramiel picture appear in front of Atari booth !!! WTF !?!
    and David (Dave) Needle starts: "we had made some deals with Atari..." while Jack Tramiel picture is still on screen implying that they made deal with Jack Tramiel!

    Than movie show this fake "news paper article" (lifeschool found it is fake):

    Screen Shot 2017-01-29 at 09.14.24.png



3) unknown date Exodus-Zandex "A brief history of the Amiga" www.mobygames.com
http://www.mobygames.com/featured_artic ... ction,101/

    "Due to lack of money, the team was trying to find a company to buy their technology and to employ them. Many companies were interested in the custom chips, including Sony, Apple, Phillips, and HP."
    - remark: Sony, Apple, Phillips, and HP TURNDOWN Amiga. They WAS NOT interested in Amiga.
    "Atari's president, Jack Tramiel lent Amiga Inc. $1,000,000 to be paid back one month later. When the month ended, it became apparent that Amiga Inc. would not be able to pay him back, so he offered 98 cents per share for the company."


4) unknown date unknown "The AMIGA or the Multimedia Revolution" pcmuseum.tripod.com
http://pcmuseum.tripod.com/multirev.html

    "Atari's president, Jack Tramiel, who had just left Commodore, because he purchased Atari secretly, was trying to get his revenge by buying Amiga inc. He lent Amiga Inc. $1,000,000, to be payed back one month later. When the month was almost up, it became apparent that Amiga Inc. would not be able to pay Jack Tramiel back, so he offered .98 cents per share for the company. Amiga Inc. looked for someone else to buy them. Just 2 days before the deadline, Commodore came in and began to talk to Amiga Inc."


5) unknown date unknown "Retro Home Computers – Commodore Amiga 1000" egames.com
http://play.egames.com/commodore-amiga- ... -computer/

    "Tramiel purchased the Atari Consumer Division subsidiary from Time-Warner, he folded into Tramiel Technology Ltd (TTL), which was then renamed in to Atari Inc. ... Tramiel saw Lorraine as a golden opportunity to get a new advanced technology without spending any money or time on research and design. He made an extremely low offer to buy the outstanding stock of Amiga Inc. and gain access to the Lorraine technology behind the computer. Being desperate this offer was tentatively accepted by the Amiga Company. ... Negotiations between Atari (Time Warner) and Amiga Inc started in the Fall of 1983. Negotiations continued with Amiga during the January 1984 CES and signed in early March of 1984. The deal was for Warner and Atari to join the already several investors Amiga had, by providing a $500,000 payment."
    ---
    Tramiel bought part of Atari Inc. and Tramel Technology Ltd (TTL) was renamed to Atari Corp.
    Entire article is complete mess!




TRUE STORYES: (opposite to above. Here are links that get story about Jack Tramiel and Amiga right)

1) 19.05.2016. Anthony Caulfield, Nicola Caulfield "From Bedrooms to Billions: The Amiga Years" www.frombedroomstobillions.com
http://www.frombedroomstobillions.com/amiga at 46min 50sec
    search for movie...

2) 05.11.2016. Tom Hormby "The Amiga Story: Conceived at Atari, Born at Commodore" www.lowendmac.com
http://lowendmac.com/2016/the-amiga-sto ... commodore/
    However, Amiga was unable to find an investor to help complete the project.

    Atari was also present during the show and was impressed by Lorraine. Instead of offering to invest in the company outright, Atari offered a $500,000 loan in exchange for Lorraine’s motherboard design. The loan would have to be paid back in one month, and if Amiga was unable to repay the loan, the entire Lorraine project would be forfeited to Atari.

    Nobody at Amiga liked the plan, but there was no alternative, so the company accepted. Atari knew that Amiga wouldn’t be able to cover the loan and would be forced to cede Lorraine for a fraction of its real price.

    Many of the engineers at Amiga feared that Atari had no interest in the team itself, only in the chipset, which would be used to thwart Commodore’s plans to release a 16-bit home Unix computer.

    Commodore to the Rescue

    Jack Tramiel in a corporate coup at Commodore, Jack Tramiel walked out of the company with much of its engineering staff and bought Atari from Time Warner. He used the Amiga deal to get back at Commodore and then sued the company for interfering with the deal. The unsuccessful suit served only to pique Commodore’s interest in Amiga’s technologies.

    Commodore bought Amiga and repaid Atari’s loan just days before it was due. Lorraine was renamed Amiga and would be released in one year.

3) 27.03.2015. Jimmy Maher series "The 68000 Wars, Part 1: Lorraine" ... http://www.filfre.net

    A bevy of industry heavyweights traipsed through Amiga’s booth that June: Sony, Hewlett Packard, Philips, Silicon Graphics, Apple. (Steve Jobs, ever the minimalist, allegedly scoffed at the Lorraine as over-engineered, containing too much fancy hardware for its own good.) The quantity and quality of Amiga’s write-ups in the trade press also increased significantly. Compute!, the biggest general-interest computing magazine in the country, raved that the Lorraine was “possibly the most advanced personal computer ever,” “the beginning of a completely new generation,” and “enough to make an IBM PC look like a four-function calculator.” Still, Amiga left the show without the thing they needed most: a viable alternative to Atari. With just a few weeks to go, their future looked grim. And then Commodore called.

    To understand the reasons behind that phone call, we have to return to January 13, 1984, the day of that mysterious board meeting at Commodore that outraged their CEO Jack Tramiel so egregiously as to send him storming out of the building and burning rubber out of the parking lot, never to return. In his noncommittal statements to the press immediately after the divorce was made official, Tramiel said he planned to take some time to consider his next move. For now, he and his wife were going to spend a year traveling the world, to make up for all the vacations they had skipped over the course of his long career.

    At the time that he said it, he seems to have meant it. He and wife Helen made it as far as Sri Lanka by April. But by that point he’d already had all he could take of the life of leisure. He and Helen returned to the United States so Jack could start a new venture to be called simply Tramel Technology. (The spelling of the name was changed to reflect the proper pronunciation of Tramiel’s last name; most Americans’ habit of mispronouncing the last syllable had always driven him crazy.) His plan was to scrape together funding and a team and build the mass-market successor to the Commodore 64.

    ---
    Although Jimmy Maher fail to mention that Steve Ross from Warner Communication was one who called Jack while he was on trip and urge him to short the trip and to come back to USA so they could negotiate about Warner problem: Atari Inc. (which lose more than million $ per day for two quarters in a row!)
    and my personal note regarding Jimmy attitude: - it is interesting how he interpreted data from Marty Goldberg differently.
    Example: in comments at http://www.filfre.net/2015/04/the-68000 ... k-is-back/ Jimmy Maher wrote: "Finally, Marty Goldberg’s once again shared a lot of insights and information on the legal battle between Atari and Commodore, including some extracts from actual court transcripts, although once again our conclusions about it are quite different."
    Also please note Jimmy Maher attitude toward Jack Tramiel: "and even more nefarious deeds by our favorite villain around these parts, Jack Tramiel" http://www.filfre.net/2016/11/21/ - just to understand his writing, and here and there, twisting the "true" in favor of Amiga/Commodore.


--- end --------------------------------------------------------
Stay tuned. More to come. Please add if you have more.

Please check great timeline of Tramel Technology Ltd. and Atari Corporation by Michael D. Current


Screenshots of FALSE claim websites:
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Last edited by calimero on Fri May 12, 2017 7:14 am, edited 34 times in total.
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:41 am

Wasn't there something like Jack wanted to have custom chips like Amiga has for Atari, but Jack got booted off and he went for more "off the shelf" type parts. I don't remember Jack giving them money, but do half remember something about the Amiga chipsets being used in Atari from years ago.
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby Total Eclipse » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:51 am

These two articles give a pretty thorough (and hopefully accurate) description of the whole negotiation process.

http://www.filfre.net/2015/03/the-68000-wars-part-1-lorraine/
http://www.filfre.net/2015/04/the-68000-wars-part-2-jack-is-back/

Very interesting reading.
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby insanity » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:15 pm

This is talked about in From Bedrooms to Billions - The Amiga Years:
http://www.frombedroomstobillions.com/amiga
Worth watching, despite being the Amiga :D

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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby lifeschool » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:06 pm

YES, do see From Bedrooms To Billion and The Amiga Years, they are both exceptional!

True Stories:
This is Dan here for LemonAmiga.com. I was also distracted by this false claim that I recently made a documentary series to prove this wasnt the case. Its called Amiga Quantum Leap, and is basically Atari centric all the way up until the development of the Amiga, so all you Atari fans might get a kick out of seeing history from an Amiga lovers point of view. :)

False Stories:
I recently get to see Viva Amiga, and was surprised to see at 17:30 in the movie that they talk about this and show a photo of a newspaper article proving this happened, at 17:37. I could not find this article in any newspaper, and so I tried to search for the story printed directly above the Tramiel image, by simply typing "Bordry said Fofonov was asked" into google. Sure enough, I found this article printed verbatim in many newspapers, but the story was about a cycling incident which happened in 2008. Looking closely at the newspaper evidence image, it seems to be a composite from "Sept 2nd 1984 - Tramiel at Atari, Enquirer Article "The Computer Warrior"" and the story from 2008, plus a false headline.

The Real Story?
The way I heard the Amiga bid story, there were three companies interested in buying Amiga. One of those people was Jack over at TTL, and he put in a very small offer which was not acceptable. Atari put in a significant offer, and Commodore put in the best offer (per share value), which the Amiga team then hiked up even more, after Amiga said the company was worth more than Commodores offer. Then Commodore got the gig, Jack went to Atari, and Warner Communications Inc gave Atari to Jack, giving him 10 years to pay off the deal (which he never did). Amiga were holding out for Commodores bid, and if this had failed, it looked like Amiga was going to Atari after all. But Jack wasnt at Atari at that time.

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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby Mindthreat » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:57 am

lifeschool wrote:YES, do see From Bedrooms To Billion and The Amiga Years, they are both exceptional!

True Stories:
This is Dan here for LemonAmiga.com. I was also distracted by this false claim that I recently made a documentary series to prove this wasnt the case. Its called Amiga Quantum Leap, and is basically Atari centric all the way up until the development of the Amiga, so all you Atari fans might get a kick out of seeing history from an Amiga lovers point of view. :)

False Stories:
I recently get to see Viva Amiga, and was surprised to see at 17:30 in the movie that they talk about this and show a photo of a newspaper article proving this happened, at 17:37. I could not find this article in any newspaper, and so I tried to search for the story printed directly above the Tramiel image, by simply typing "Bordry said Fofonov was asked" into google. Sure enough, I found this article printed verbatim in many newspapers, but the story was about a cycling incident which happened in 2008. Looking closely at the newspaper evidence image, it seems to be a composite from "Sept 2nd 1984 - Tramiel at Atari, Enquirer Article "The Computer Warrior"" and the story from 2008, plus a false headline.

The Real Story?
The way I heard the Amiga bid story, there were three companies interested in buying Amiga. One of those people was Jack over at TTL, and he put in a very small offer which was not acceptable. Atari put in a significant offer, and Commodore put in the best offer (per share value), which the Amiga team then hiked up even more, after Amiga said the company was worth more than Commodores offer. Then Commodore got the gig, Jack went to Atari, and Warner Communications Inc gave Atari to Jack, giving him 10 years to pay off the deal (which he never did). Amiga were holding out for Commodores bid, and if this had failed, it looked like Amiga was going to Atari after all. But Jack wasnt at Atari at that time.


Yeah, I was wondering about this too as they tout Jack to have loaned them the money. Some thing to get wrong, eh?
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:04 am

I edite first post, added "Viva Amiga" as source of perpetuating false store which obviously come from Amiga team, mainly R J Mical and Dave Needle.

I understand that they were piss off on Jack Tramiel:
in 1983. Amiga desperately try to find investor but they was turned down by almost every computer company, namely: Apple, Sony, Philips, HP... and COMMODORE (while Jack still was CEO). Specifically: Jack said that he is interested in buying Amiga chips but not Amiga designing team so negotiations did not get so far.
I believe that R J Mical, Dave Needle and other engineers in Amiga team take this as insult!


And this is how they pay back for insult: by fabricating and perpetuating story how Jack badly needed Amiga chips when he got Atari Corp. According to their fairytale, since Jack did not get Amiga chips he was forced to rush ST.

Absolute nonsens!

True is, and very good documented fact, is that when Jack Tramiel got offer from Warner to but Atari, he get immediately in touch with his favorite engineer, Shiraz Shivji (who still work at Commodore), and agree with him to design and build RBP - Rock Bottom Price computer, which will be produced and sold by Atari Corp.
Shiraz and other loyal engineers to Jack, start to design new computer (RBP) while they still were at Commodore! Plan was that Shiraz and other leave Commodore as soon as Jack get back from trip around world*.
On 17. May 1984. Jack Tramiel WITH Shiraz Shivji and Lee Schreiber found TTL. Tramel Technology, Ltd.
In next few months, in Commodore exodus happened (see link at bottom)! Many Jack's loyal employees leave Commodore for TTL (which was renamed to Atari Corp. as soon as deal with Warner was signed).
Commodore immediately sued Shiraz Shivji and others ex-Commodore engineers for, allegedly but never proven on court, stealing trade secrets asking court to forbid Shiraz and his colleagues to work on RBP.
Amiga - Atari Inc. contract was discovered by Leonard Tramiel and as soon as Jack sort of with Warner that Atari Corp. is owner of contract, he use it to contra sue Commodore and ask from court to forbid Jay Miner and other Amiga team members to continue work on Amiga!
It was not Jack one who first sue, it was Commodore. Commodore eventually lose court case, and pay undisclosed amount of money to Atari Corp. and pay all court expenses. Only few months ago, in one hour long interview with Jack Tramiel by 8bit generation, he told that Commodore pay one million to Atari Corp. (I also urge anyone interested in Atari-Amiga history to watch this interview with Jack Tramiel!).

To cut long story short:
- Jack offer Amiga to buy its chips, but not taking engineers, while he was still in Commodore
- Jack did not have any concrete plans to work in computer industry until Steve Ross from Warner did not call him
- Jack only than agree with Shiraz Shivji to design and make Rock Bottom Price computer (Atari ST)
- and most importantly: Jack did not WANT or had any plans with Amiga from this point and on - and this is LIE which is constantly perpetuate by some Amiga team members, and now entire Amiga community (see first post!)!


* Jack after leaving Commodore in January 1984. took a long trip with his wife Helen, around the world, not planing to do any new business anytime soon. BUT while he was on trip, Steven Ross, CEO of Warner, owner of Atari Inc., call Jack and offer him to buy Atari! Atari Inc. was loosing literally million dollar per day and Warner had to do something quick.

do not miss this link if you are interested in Atari Corp history: http://mcurrent.name/atarihistory/trame ... ology.html
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby vido » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:43 am

As this is just so important word in your text ... LAY should be LIE.

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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:14 am

Thanx Vido!

///
in last post, beside R J Mical and David Needle, I forgot to mention Dave Haynie as main source of this false claims.

Dave Haynie also claim how Jack Tramiel loan money to Amiga:

Dave Haynie on Atari ST and Amiga + martyg about contract in url copy.png


but in same time, he also say that he was not there (he come to Commodore later, after Commodore bought Amiga) and that he repeat only what Amiga team members told him, since they were friends...

but Dave Haynie seems to be main source of claim that Atari ST is based on Commodore 900!
There is no other evidence of this that I could found except repeating of Dave Haynie:
https://youtu.be/Rcr2CFV0T4I?t=7m42s

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... 126-150%5D (here is also claim that Jack made loan to Amiga)
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby bid » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:21 pm

I highly suspect that Jack was no hero, and actually tried to make pretty rotten and dirty deals.

AFAIK, his 'business method' was to take no prisoners, and ethically speaking, I think he played a fairly nasty game.

I suspect that this 'backfired' in the USA market of dealers for ST sales, which was what in the long run killed Atari Corporation (unlike in Europe, Atari US mauled the distribution network), and also after the game playing with the original machine specs (above), the whole product placement/lifecycle of the Atari Corp machines was clearly screwed from start to finish.

The ST was an amazing product, with an amazing OS, development team, hardware and propects. IMHO the best computer ever made. ... But after ST and Mega, the STe was shipped minus the announced spec ... which I am sure existed
ide was developed ... it was in the ST-Book, in TOS and there was a STe mobo with IDE drive. The transputer used Mega's with Blossom, there were amazing sound chips half finished, the TT's shifter was the same crappy processor driven crap. But in the background was all manner of cross-pollinating but never released hardware.
Mega-STe and TT were cool machines, and a step in the right direction, but the ST line just kept coming back out, and then we were back to the original STfm after the STe. My goodness, if they just added a breakout to add-on parts, or even kept the the same socket, and made room for expansion. Why the ST was not upgradable is beyond me. Likely, a higher level management decision, to limit its lifespan and stick to discrete machines that never appeared.

Atari seemed to like to launch machines, and then drop all support for it. A kind of C64 mentality, that had not taken into account changes in the way that consumers bought computers. Not enough OS development, until too late. MultiTos was developed out of house, and there were amazing OS's including one for cartridge that were lightyears ahead.

The thing I have always liked, is the story of Atari. I always felt that they were a company with the best ideas, and development, but with crippled marketing, which failed them time and time again. It must have been amazing as a place to work, with the sheer talent, but in terms of management I think it was a one-way-street with tyrannical leadership.

When Jaguar came out, I had a brief feeling that something ST-like, but with great video and sound would be right around the corner. The developers of Jaguar chipset, and Lynx were English, and I think were the engineers that built the Speccy, Sam Coupe and the wonderful chipsets of the likes that once thrilled and amazed millions. What is the secret, that would reveal why non of the Blossom, Panther, Tom / Jerry, IDE or ISA type connectors made it into any production model, I dont know. If development was parallel, efficient and tight, then resources would have been pumped into making one sound system and one video system that could be used across computer and console lines.

Its astonishing how modular the OS is and a wonderful system, in which to upgrade and adapt, and in my mind I want to thank the engineers that made this possible. Maybe one day, a group of them might come back and make a PC that is the antithesis of the cumbersome, wasteful and uninspiring PC's of today.

There is a great simplicity and reliability in the ST line, and its incredible just how fast and responsive these computers and OS is still today. I love to turn on my Atari and see the desktop in just a few seconds, and my original STe bought new in 1991 still works, brings me pleasure, and has never needed repair. I'm happy with its ability, and I just wish that I was offered a computer to upgrade to. I would have happily paid for a new model several times over, if there was a model made. However, the new models for home consumers never appeared.
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby bid » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:00 pm

calimero wrote:but Dave Haynie seems to be main source of claim that Atari ST is based on Commodore 900!
There is no other evidence of this that I could found except repeating of Dave Haynie:


I read elsewhere that Shiraz originally began with a different chip to the 68k, and also an alternative sound chip was originally planned (which as an Atari development).

I basically think that the ST Computer design, and the brilliant engineers, created such an amazing ahead of its time machine that Sam and Leonard Tramiel, once they 'descended on Atari', took a very long time to destroy it.

I mean that the machine was so revolutionary and great, that it took them nearly 10 years, before they managed to finally suck the lifes-blood out of the company, and destroy any chance of this most advanced and elegantly executed computer specification from succeeding.

It beggars belief that the upgrade path in terms of CPU and Motorola's own work in this regard, really only requires a proper specification to be made and executed in a timely fashion. Its clearly shown by the original aftermarket boards, that 020, 030, more ram, SCSI, IDE etc etc were all possible in a low cost manner. Atari could have easily just incorporated them into a new machine. Even the early TT shows how a 16MHz chip is replaced with a 32MHz daughterboard. I believe that Sparrow was the same, after the real Falcon was canned, I'll bet engineers built it, and practically begged for it to be released as some sort of consolation.

Very thankfully, we can now see, with the dedicated R&D of the Atari community, what these computers might-have-been.

The fact that TOS2.06 and 3.06 has IDE code in it, and hardware is taking advantage of it is great! Taking an ST to 32Mhz, is incredible! ... Fitting a graphics card, wowser! Networking? Wow. ... I am particularly loving all the non-falcon development, for the massive massive massive ST user base.

I really think that the original ST, in time could be upgraded to a great spec. I dont personally care for 68030, as what really do these extra instructions add? However, clock speed is cool, compatibility and I really like the idea of the 68000 getting some love, as if these machines could run the type of OS that Falcon aficionado's are doing in MiNT then there is a much bigger user base, more machines, and almost unlimited supply of people that never really gave up on Atari, even when Atari did.

I love the idea of MonSTer, and I wonder one day, will it be able to work with a 32Mhz booster? ... With networking, decent speed, and modern storage and 10meg ram, what more could you want?

Maybe Shiraz will want to buy one!!
My company website http://www.thebigconsultant.com[/i][/color]

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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:22 pm

bid wrote:
calimero wrote:but Dave Haynie seems to be main source of claim that Atari ST is based on Commodore 900!
There is no other evidence of this that I could found except repeating of Dave Haynie:


I read elsewhere that Shiraz originally began with a different chip to the 68k, and also an alternative sound chip was originally planned (which as an Atari development).

I would say it is a well know fact that first choose of CPU for ST was National Semiconductor NS320xx. This is also mentioned in wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_ST

Commodore 900 was based on Z8000

bid wrote:I mean that the machine was so revolutionary and great, that it took them nearly 10 years, before they managed to finally suck the lifes-blood out of the company, and destroy any chance of this most advanced and elegantly executed computer specification from succeeding.

Agree. ST was so long lived and very USEFUL computer that it is almost unprecedented.

rest of my answer I move to thread: The Falcon's confusing history
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:58 pm

Thanks lifeschool (Dan) for brining attention to Viva Amiga. btw what is your role at lemonamiga.com?

I have few question if you do not mind about your statement:
lifeschool wrote:The way I heard the Amiga bid story, there were three companies interested in buying Amiga. One of those people was Jack over at TTL...

Do you have any proof, link... for this claim?
That TTL bid or have any contact with Amiga Inc.?

lifeschool wrote:Then Commodore got the gig, Jack went to Atari, and Warner Communications Inc gave Atari to Jack, giving him 10 years to pay off the deal (which he never did).


please read part from Curt Vendel and Marty Goldberg book "Atari Inc: Business is Fun" (first link in first post).

"Warner Communications Inc gave Atari to Jack, giving him 10 years to pay off the deal" - not true.

Jack agrees to purchase Atari Inc. for $75 million in cash, $140 million in senior debentures at 13% and $100 million in subordinate debentures at 9%. Warner would take a $425 million pre-tax loss on the sale... and Steve Ross would breath a huge sigh of relief. The deal was done - Steve Ross $538 million pool of quicksand was gone (excerpt from the book)


Jack leave Commodore in January and he had no new plans to work in computer industry. He go on holiday trip around the world with his wife Helen.
Let me try to make timeline of events around Amiga, Atari, Commodore and Jack (note: Atari Inc. is owned by Warner):

# 1983 November 21 - first Atari Inc. and Amiga Corp. agreement. Atari Inc. got description of Lorraine
# (I do not have evidence but I believe that prior this agreement (Atari Inc. - Amiga Corp.) Jack Tramiel was already saw Lorraine (as many other companies like Sony, Philips, Apple, HP, Silicon Graphics...) and he was said that he is interested only in chips, not in Amiga engineers so negotiation stop before even begin.)
# 1983 December - Atari Inc. made specification for possible computer based on Lorraine chipset
# 1984 Januar 14. - Jack Tramiel leave Commodore
# 1984 March 6 - Atari Inc. and Amiga Corp. sign new agreement (which include famous $500.000 "loan", it was investment in Amiga) where they also state terms on how Atari Inc. can purchase Amiga Corp. stocks.
# 1984 ?/? - Jack get offer from Warner to become CEO of Atari but he refused, instead they agree to Jack take over part of Atari
# 1984 May 17. - Jack Tramiel with Shiraz Shivji and Lee Schreiber found TTL. Tramel Technology, Ltd.
# 1984 June 28. - Amiga Corp. sign contract with Commodore
# 1984 June 29. - Dave Morse bring $500.000 check to Atari Corp. John Farrand inform him that it is not Atari intention to get schematic from them even if they did not return $500.000.
# 1984 July 1. - Jack Tramiel TTL become owner of Atari Inc. consumer part retroactively from Saturday (30. June)
# 1984 July 10. - Commodore sued four former employees: Shiraz Shivji, Arthur S. Morgan, John E. Hoenig and Douglas L. Renn alleging they had stolen files containing trade secrets they intended to divulge at their new company. Chester County Judge M. Joseph Melody Jr. issued a preliminary injunction barring them from using or revealing any trade secrets.
# 1984 July 11. - Tramel Technology, Ltd. change the corporate name to: Atari, Corp.
# 1984 July - Digital Research and Atari software engineers together commenced work on ports of CP/M-68K, GEM
# 1984 ?/? - Leonard found Atari Inc. - Amiga Corp. agreement
# 1984 August 13 - As Commodore International announced their acquisition of Amiga Corporation and plans to release the Amiga computer, Atari filed a suit for fraud against Amiga Corporation


Some more notes:
Atari Inc.: they did not gave any special offer to Amiga since they already have agreement with Amiga (signed on 6. November 1984.) and they think that everything is going as it is agreed in document. They really wanted for Amiga to finish chips.
I try to find information that would support Amiga team story that "Atari offer made another offer but only 0.98$ per share" but I can not. I can find only ridiculous folklore stories (I put them in first post) and nothing that would support them.

---
I will try to make some database (probably Papyrus) with all these "facts" and with (multiple) sources for each.
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:48 am

@lifeschool

just stumble on your text about Amiga-Atari-Commodore at lemon forum:
http://www.lemonamiga.com/forum/viewtop ... iel#125909

"Jack had also been working on a rival machine, which was reported as "95% complete" by June 1984. By July 84 Jack had bought Atari and TTL was renamed Atari Corporation. The Atari buy out was necessary because it was all a bluff. Jack had tried the National Semiconductor NS320, and found it didnt work, leaving him with nothing. He needed Atari's agreement of "one-year exclusive use" of the Lorraine chips and design
...
Contrary to popular myth, the ST did not exist in any shape or form at Atari prior to Tramiels' takeover. But with this deal in the bag, the ST began under the name 1850XLD."


what is source for this story?

From interview with Shira Shivji START VOL. 3 NO. 1 / SUMMER 1988 (I am sure you already know for this interview since you quote some parts of it in your text)
http://www.atarimagazines.com/startv3n1 ... sofst.html

"Shivji soon had a block diagram of the machine on paper, but a detailed schematic was still months away. At least three CPU chip sets were under consideration, and the design engineers were still not sold on the Motorola 68000, the microprocessor at the heart of today's ST. Originally, the ST was intended to be a true 32-bit machine.

"We were hot on the 32016 and 32032," Shivji said. "We had a bunch of meetings with National Semiconductor regarding the availability of the chip, and when it was obvious that we could not have the number of chips that we wanted and the pricing was not right, then the decision was made to go with the 68000. Actually, what happened also was that eventually we even built a unit based on the National 32032 and we were quite disappointed.""
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby lifeschool » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:15 am

hi calimero.

I co-run the lemonamiga forum, and I make all the lemon amiga playguide videos. I dont think I am the man to ask for 'proof'.

I just made the youtube documentary Amiga: The Quantum Leap to try to put everything in date order, as it happened, a 4 hour documentary about Atari (plus a bit about the Amiga) which took me 18 months to make. All references for TTL research etc, are listed at listed at the end of the documentary. I have no proof Jack made a bid while at TTL.

I happened to watch this talk by Jay from 1989 last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daQNJMZblZ8

Jay says it in a bit of a confusing way, but he says "as soon as Atari changed hands, the offers Stopped', which might suggest 'as soon as Jack took over, the offers became less' or 'as soon as Jack took over, the offers stopped'. So I was hoping Jay himself would shed some light on this, but I cant say this evidence is absolute proof.

btw, nebby6 on youtube has just uploaded a massive Atari Talk from 1997 this week, which is full of insights, perhaps you guys have seen it before?

https://www.youtube.com/user/nebby6/videos

now I must get back to my own forum, sorry I cant help anymore, cheers.
Last edited by lifeschool on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby lifeschool » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:37 am

calimero wrote:
Contrary to popular myth, the ST did not exist in any shape or form at Atari prior to Tramiels' takeover. But with this deal in the bag, the ST began under the name 1850XLD."[/i]

what is source for this story?


Sorry if I sounded rough in my last reply, I cant edit it because it has gone to moderation. :(

I got my facts totally wrong on this one, as I say, this was many years ago and I only found out the truth recently. The 1850XLD was known as the Mickey later on, when the guy who developed it took over, and can be heard about at the end of the 'Atari Legends Chatting' video on youtube, from the channel in my first reply. This was 'only lacking a keyboard' according to the engineer in this video, so the mickey was based on the Amiga, but was not used because (according to myth and no proof), jack never even looked into the development lab, he just sacked everyone in there to make way for this one team from commodore. Again, dont quote me. We know for sure from Leonard that Jack was a technophobe, and only later mastered an ipad, so it was unlikely he would want to use any of Atari's prototypes when he had his own plans.

The ST was based not just on the lorraine plans (because there were disabled), but also some C900 elements, some things from other computers, some new ideas, as well as 'off the shelf'' parts. I have already been pulled up on this by one of my viewers, and I'm now sure the Amiga wasnt featured so heavily in the ST as suggested, basically they could copy a few traces from common chips to save time, but they still had to come up with a unique PCB, which looks nothing like an Amiga. The actual Atari Amiga, based on Amiga, was Mickey.

Sorry if I dont notice a reply, I'll be on Lemon so wont be coming back here most likely. I have PM'd you a list of dates and events I managed to prove. Although I never managed to confirm work on the ST began the day after the court case, evidence says 'the middle of July', so the 11th has a '?'.

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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:48 pm

I just add claim no. 6) - I never hear something like this before but I find it really amusing :) (author is lifeschool)

---
EDIT:
number 6) (FALSE) was removed since lifeschool explain to me that it was old information before he start to research.
Last edited by calimero on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:00 pm

I see that JEREMY REIMER is well and kicking: "A history of the Amiga, part 10: The downfall of Commodore"
1/22/2017 https://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/ ... commodore/

and bashing Jack Tramiel...
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:28 am

lifeschool wrote:hi calimero.

I co-run the lemonamiga forum, and I make all the lemon amiga playguide videos. I dont think I am the man to ask for 'proof'.

I just made the youtube documentary Amiga: The Quantum Leap to try to put everything in date order, as it happened, a 4 hour documentary about Atari (plus a bit about the Amiga) which took me 18 months to make. All references for TTL research etc, are listed at listed at the end of the documentary. I have no proof Jack made a bid while at TTL.

I happened to watch this talk by Jay from 1989 last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daQNJMZblZ8

Jay says it in a bit of a confusing way, but he says "as soon as Atari changed hands, the offers Stopped', which might suggest 'as soon as Jack took over, the offers became less' or 'as soon as Jack took over, the offers stopped'. So I was hoping Jay himself would shed some light on this, but I cant say this evidence is absolute proof.

btw, nebby6 on youtube has just uploaded a massive Atari Talk from 1997 this week, which is full of insights, perhaps you guys have seen it before?

https://www.youtube.com/user/nebby6/videos

now I must get back to my own forum, sorry I cant help anymore, cheers.


somehow I did not see this post from you! Forum simple did not show me your post?!

Thanks for taking time to clarify things and for sharing these new massive videos from user nebby6 on youtube and for quoting Jay Miner speech regarding offers!

We will need some time to watch and "process" all these new data from videos. True gems!

Thanks again for sharing, commenting, analyzing and collaboration!
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby calimero » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:17 am

On Wikipedia article "Amiga Corporation" is full of inaccuracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Corporation

I open new topic on Talk page and wrote down all inaccuracy (with supporting links) but I did not edit main text. If someone have time, it would be nice to incorporate and correct all this information from talk page (I will not edit main article since my english is not my mother language).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Amig ... ogy.2C_Ltd.
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Re: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

Postby 1st1 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:23 am

Commodore C900 as the base of developement os ST, I don't believe that. Z8000 CPU is very old Even at that Time, and quite slow even compared to 8086. Olivetti already hat M20 computer with it in 1980. http://www.z80ne.com/m20/

Above timeline, an interesting episode should be addad, the contact of Microsoft, getting Windows on ST instead of GEM. http://www.atarimagazines.com/startv3n1 ... sofst.html This would have been a game changer for the whole industry.
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