New Atari PSU in the making

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New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:53 pm

As many know, I have suggested this for a few months, but only recently had time to finish the design.

1-min.png


The "front end" is a torodial transformer. I chose a 50VA type ( about 4amps output). These are actually pretty efficient and possible more efficient than the switchmode transformers and related losses. This also means no nasty high voltage switching transistors and everything is low voltage. The regulators are switching regulators, so heat losses are kept a lot lower than using linear regulators. Switchmode regulators give better efficiency (less heat) and offer fast reaction times for regulation.

One thing I almost overlooked, is when the original PSU's fail, DC is applied to the switchmode core and the output voltage falls to zero, which means the 5V & 12V rail fall to zero volts quickly. The down side of a regulator is there is no way to know how it may fail. Of course they should never fail, but I did not want to simple ignore this safety feature. So I have added in a "Crowbar" onto both the 5V and 12V lines. So should the voltage rise to high on either levels, the crowbar kicks in and will blow the onboard fuse.

The regulation should better any Atari PSU I have tested to date. According to my simulations the output ripple should be less than 5mV, generally the Atari PSU's are 20mV to 50mV or higher depending on brand etc.

The "black holes" in the PCB are to allow the regulators to be bolted onto the metalwork of the existing PSU base and used as a heatsink and a solid ground plane. The PCB is the same physical size as the original PSU, so will bolt down in all 4 corners as normal. Each screw point is now also used as a ground. This makes the groundplane out of thick metalwork which is advantage and is a free heatsink. The regulators should not get to warm so the metal area is more than enough.

The hardest parts were the inductors. This always drives me nuts as there are so many terrible types on the market that I could write a book on it it, in fact I think I did write a paper on it at some point :lol: With physical size constrictions and cost being a factor, some small compromises had to be made. Mostly it is the heat dissipation of the inductor. I worked it out at less than a watt which isn't much really, but this could be reduced further with more expensive inductors, but the cost jumps up to like £10 a pop. 4 of them is £40 so you can see my problem there. Really the more expensive inductors just are higher current rated, so thicker wire, larger core, so wattage lost isn't as much. But not worth paying £40 just to save about half a watt of heat dissipation. Overall, it shouldn't get as hot as the original PSU's anyway.

The inductors do not start to saturate until about 3amps, which is the max rated power of the Atari PSU anyway. Though in general, according to the datasheets, as the output current rises, the required inductance generally goes down. For example, if you only wanted 500mA then you would use a 680uH inductor. Towards 3 amps is 100uH inductor. Beyond 3amps gets to about 60uH. Which actually works out perfectly as the inductor starts to saturate at that point, so the inductance actually starts to drop, which actually is a win-win situation....

...Of course about that point the internal current limit of the regulators will kick in. Regulators can push about 3Amps RMS like the Atari PSU, and have something like 6amps peak current. On short circuits the regulator will switch into a low power mode and basically shut down until the fault is removed. The transformer is 4amps rated so we shouldn't be pulling more than that in total anyway. The limits are also physical space constrictions on the PCB, a 60VA transformer simply wouldn't fit. Higher amp switchmode regulators start ramping up costs, so I stuck with 3Amps as its the same as the Atari PSU's. It is doubtful anyone will use more than 3Amps anyway. Though I won't know the absolute max values until I have one physically built.

Diodes on the board are the lowest voltage drop Schottky diodes I could find. So this keeps efficiency as high as possible in that part of the circuit. Capacitors have about over 3amps ripple so all good there. The main reservoir capacitor is about 10,000uF with added 2,200uF on the regulator outputs for best ripple regulation possible. Keeping the reservoir value high also helps with regulator stability and better regulation.

Overall designing these things , like with most things, is one huge compromise with everything. I have tried to keep efficiency as high as possible and keep the regulation as high as possible , without spending stupid money on parts.

The PCB's will hopefully go into production sometime next week. I will post back with more news as it happens :)
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:16 pm

That's awesome :) This is very interesting ! You have my support ;)

Will it be the same size as the old atari ST/E PSUs ?
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby dml » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:20 pm

Nice project. Is it aimed just at STs or others in the line?

I'm almost surprised to see a transformer without switchmode stuff, but I like the idea :)

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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:41 pm

dml wrote:Nice project. Is it aimed just at STs or others in the line?

Just ST/STE's for the moment. It may be possible to fit to MEGA with a little work, but one step at a time. The problem with other machines is they need -12V and sometimes -5V so it makes the design more complicated. I am possibly thinking of a daughter board to generate -12V , thinking towards the falcon, but not looked into this yet. Possible 3amps might not be enough for the falcon anyway.

dml wrote:I'm almost surprised to see a transformer without switchmode stuff, but I like the idea :)


It has 2 switchmode regulators to generate the 5V &12V. This is done at about 20VDC instead of switching 350VDC on a pulse transformer (which is a huge heat loss)

Either way, a transformer would be needed. If I had gone down the pulse transformer route, I would have to get some made (expensive) or re-use the transformer on the existing PSU, which gets a bit pointless as its basically re-inventing the same design. I'm not a fan of 350V switching, so 20V is a lot safer and more reliable. The torodials are not to expensive to use anyway :)

dlfrsilver wrote:That's awesome :) This is very interesting ! You have my support ;)

Will it be the same size as the old atari ST/E PSUs ?


Its a PCB replacement, you just change the old Atari PSU PCB with this new one. Its a little more involved, but thats basically the idea. I wanted to keep it all internal like the current PSU's.
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby spiny » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:19 pm

Nice :) Stick me on the 'will buy' list :)

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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby CiH » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:08 pm

Sounds good :-)
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby highway » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:53 am

Very interesting projet !
I will follow it

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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby dml » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:39 am

exxos wrote:It has 2 switchmode regulators to generate the 5V &12V. This is done at about 20VDC instead of switching 350VDC on a pulse transformer (which is a huge heat loss)

Either way, a transformer would be needed. If I had gone down the pulse transformer route, I would have to get some made (expensive) or re-use the transformer on the existing PSU, which gets a bit pointless as its basically re-inventing the same design. I'm not a fan of 350V switching, so 20V is a lot safer and more reliable. The torodials are not to expensive to use anyway :)


Ah, I got the wrong end of the stick. Makes sense though ...I was wondering :)

The last time I worked on a switchmode supply was in the other direction - 12V in to 350v (pulsed) out, then stepped up again to ~2000v. It was built into an ATX box using some of the salvaged parts. No - don't ask :)

Best of luck with the project.

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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:58 am

dml wrote:The last time I worked on a switchmode supply was in the other direction - 12V in to 350v (pulsed) out, then stepped up again to ~2000v. It was built into an ATX box using some of the salvaged parts. No - don't ask :)


Step ups are cool 8) . My step ups tend to be in the 100's of KV area though :twisted: http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/IMPULSE2015/ Hopefully I can get back working on this stuff in a couple years time. For some reason all my free time is taken up on Atari projects :roll: :lol:
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby stimpy » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:03 am

exxos wrote:The hardest parts were the inductors. This always drives me nuts as there are so many terrible types on the market that I could write a book on it it, in fact I think I did write a paper on it at some point :lol: With physical size constrictions and cost being a factor, some small compromises had to be made. Mostly it is the heat dissipation of the inductor. I worked it out at less than a watt which isn't much really, but this could be reduced further with more expensive inductors, but the cost jumps up to like £10 a pop. 4 of them is £40 so you can see my problem there. Really the more expensive inductors just are higher current rated, so thicker wire, larger core, so wattage lost isn't as much. But not worth paying £40 just to save about half a watt of heat dissipation. Overall, it shouldn't get as hot as the original PSU's anyway.


That sounds very expensive, a quick look at Farnell suggests you get get 68uH inductors for around a £1, such as MSS1583-683MED although the current rating might be too close? What about shifting the frequency higher and taking a small hit on the switching losses? You got provision for putting an RC snubber across the diodes too?
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby dml » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:03 am

exxos wrote:Step ups are cool 8) . My step ups tend to be in the 100's of KV area though :twisted: http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/IMPULSE2015/ Hopefully I can get back working on this stuff in a couple years time. For some reason all my free time is taken up on Atari projects :roll: :lol:


Woah. Ok so you're an HV addict. :-P Noted.

I'll saynomore here - but you might find some of my previous antics there: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kalidetro ... 608887415/

Not quite 100kv - but lotsa amps :)

[backontopic]

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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:20 am

stimpy wrote:That sounds very expensive, a quick look at Farnell suggests you get get 68uH inductors for around a £1, such as MSS1583-683MED although the current rating might be too close? What about shifting the frequency higher and taking a small hit on the switching losses? You got provision for putting an RC snubber across the diodes too?


I can't alter the frequency, its fixed in the regulator. Its swings and roundabouts again, higher frequency is higher losses, but smaller inductor with less losses. Its all a trade off. I was looking at other options originally using a external mosfet to keep losses down, but it just isn't viable to do it. I'd love to build a more advanced design (have done in the past) but as space and cost is the main factors, a integrated regulator had to be used.

I am planning on using a coilcraft inductor, though they have to be 100uH not 68uH. They are about £2 each. There doesn't seem to be any higher current ones about. I checked some manufacture sites and 3.4A is about as high as they go without moving to a huge torodial type (not a fan) , where simply don't have room on the PCB for anyway. I've used those smaller inductors in a lot of projects and they work good.

There is filtering on the output, simulation suggests 160uV ripple there (no spikes) though not sure it be better than 5mV. Will just have to see once its built. Capacitors are large enough not to cause any switching noise problems. According to the datasheets its only about 20mV anyway. There really isn't anything "nasty" with this design at all. Its running from 20VDC rail, so can't really go wrong.
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:22 am

dml wrote:Woah. Ok so you're an HV addict. :-P Noted.

I'll saynomore here - but you might find some of my previous antics there: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kalidetro ... 608887415/

Not quite 100kv - but lotsa amps :)

[backontopic]


Looks awesome there :cheers: If you can make it portable and fit in my van and have a few meter range, I have some BMW and Audi drivers who keep cutting me up on the M1 who really need to have a accident :lol: Lots of amps or volts is always a good thing :cheers:
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby DarkLord » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:35 pm

exxos wrote: The problem with other machines is they need -12V and sometimes -5V so it makes the design more complicated.


And that's not even counting the STacy with it's -20v !
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:01 pm

DarkLord wrote:
exxos wrote: The problem with other machines is they need -12V and sometimes -5V so it makes the design more complicated.


And that's not even counting the STacy with it's -20v !


STacy strikes again :lol:
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby Arawn » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:51 pm

Nice!

I will buy at least one for my STe. If it would be possible to fit to a Mega STe it would be nice, I just bought one (still waiting to be delivered). :)

I'll keep an eye on this thread.
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby wietze » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:02 pm

Im interested in geelttingnone or two for my STEs and possibly one for my mega ste once that's sorted.

For the 'will buy' list!

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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby felicemaggie » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:33 pm

This does sound like quite an interesting project, Exxos :)

Please keep us updated on pricing etc as and when you get that information.

If you're not already friends with him, I suggest you get in touch with Lotharek (over in Poland) who also sells the reworked NetUSBee for our Atari systems - as originally designed by Stimpy - and also the HxC devices that fit most retro systems. I'm sure he would be interested in this to the point of possibly selling these via his web site (with agreement from yourself). I'm not sure if Lotharek has an account here on atari-forum.com, I'll suggest that he gets one asap as his English ability is good.
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:06 pm

I will start pricing up things over the next few days, I will keep it all as low cost as possible. There probably should be a reseller overseas as shipping from the UK to USA for example gets expensive. I've suggested this in the past, but nobody is really willing to buy stock of anything (other than the last batch of PeST's in Germany). Problem for overseas people is its probably not very realistic to ship the transformer due to weight, so some problems to iron out as to what is exactly sold, in particular for overseas people.
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:16 pm

Pricing this up initially is getting on for about £38 excluding the transformer. With the transformer it would be about £12 more. It seems a lot to build this PSU but I can't reduce the price anywhere without compromising on quality, which I don't want to do. I am already buying 10-50 of some parts to get prices down.

Overseas shipping could get expensive as the transformer is almost 1KG alone. So people may want to source the transformer more locally to them. Problem also be comes there are a few manufactures and the physically size can vary, the transformer only just fits on the PCB as it is, so people need to take care on physical dimensions. The transformer I am looking at is Vigortronix VTX-146-050-212. So could do with knowing if people are likely to buy the PSU with or without the transformer.

PCB's have been ordered today. They will be a week or so to arrive. Will post images back when I get some. Parts are all ordered, though for obvious reasons I am only ordering 2 transformers for now. I'm also looking into replacement PSU switches, more on that another time.

So thats all the news for the time being, Will be a week or 2 wait now. Once I get one built up and tested fully, I will be taking pre-orders for them.
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby thgill » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:01 am

I definitely want one or two minus the transformer!
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby Arawn » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:58 pm

I want 1 with the transformer.
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:31 pm

PCB's been manufactured :) Should have them here in a few days :)

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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:24 pm

psu1.jpg


So far so good :) Next to fit the transformer and mount it on the metal work then start testing loaded regulation etc :)
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Re: New Atari PSU in the making

Postby dlfrsilver » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:55 pm

Great !!!! :)
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