Atari TT030 and system V

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leech
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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby leech » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:52 am

Nice! Anyone run Debian m68k on a TT?
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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby tenox » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:41 am

Nope but I think it's a big omission. I will give it a spin. I think the latest media is here: https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdima ... 8k/iso-cd/

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby leech » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:16 am

Sweet, let me know how it runs. Seems to me to be the way to keep a system up to date the most.

I think at some point I had thrown around the idea about seeing if people wanted to get some brains together and build out a MiNT/Debian distribution. They already have it so you can swap out the Linux kernel with BSD. :)
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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby tenox » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:37 am

Actually since Debian/m68k is dead I think the most up to date platform is NetBSD.

Mint/Debian is definitely a cool idea!

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby Galvez » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:35 am

tenox wrote:Actually since Debian/m68k is dead I think the most up to date platform is NetBSD.

Debian/m68k is not dead, they're still building packages:

https://buildd.debian.org/stats/graph-p ... ek-big.png

https://buildd.debian.org/stats/graph2-ports-big.png

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby ThorstenOtto » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:49 pm

Not only packages, but also kernels. Some time ago i tested it using ARAnyM, and it still worked. IIRC, at that time it was a debian wheezy system running kernel 3.16.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby leech » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:59 pm

Galvez wrote:
tenox wrote:Actually since Debian/m68k is dead I think the most up to date platform is NetBSD.

Debian/m68k is not dead, they're still building packages:

https://buildd.debian.org/stats/graph-p ... ek-big.png

https://buildd.debian.org/stats/graph2-ports-big.png

Yeah, so from my understanding, m68k Debian is what is considered an 'unmaintained port' which is to say that the build systems are all very much still there, it's just not 100% updated all the time.

There was a time that gcc was completely broken for compiling m68k, but I believe that was fixed a while back. (might have been the kernel that wouldn't compile).

But yeah I think MiNT/Debian would be awesome!
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:08 pm

When I last tried Debian under TT emulation, I noticed that Linux and all the somewhat bloated libs & base system background processes take quite a lot of memory. Just starting the system with Bash shell takes almost all of the 14MB of ST-RAM. So, you're definitely going to need FastRAM to do anything useful with it.

Login will also take ages, unless one switches PAM encryption from SHA to something more reasonable like MD5, which works at OKish speed without HW acceleration (i.e. special encryption instructions available on Intel and other modern processors).

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby tenox » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:07 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:When I last tried Debian under TT emulation, I noticed that Linux.


Which emulator does TT with MMU?

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby susher » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:57 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
mfro wrote:I wasn't talking about running Firefox on the TT


That's hardly possible ;) Not only because of the speed, but also because a lot of the required libraries (like gtk) are missing.


Also, the memory usage of Firefox is *MASSIVE*. On a Linux box it uses around a gigabyte of virtual memory after just starting up and not accessing a web page!

Compiling modern GTK libraries on vanilla SVr4 is pretty well impossible too as they've become too Linux-centric. The most recent require systemd compatible sub-systems and dbus. They don't compile on Sun/Oracle Solaris 10, which is a more modern SVr4 derivative.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby leech » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:39 pm

susher wrote:
ThorstenOtto wrote:
mfro wrote:I wasn't talking about running Firefox on the TT


That's hardly possible ;) Not only because of the speed, but also because a lot of the required libraries (like gtk) are missing.


Also, the memory usage of Firefox is *MASSIVE*. On a Linux box it uses around a gigabyte of virtual memory after just starting up and not accessing a web page!

Compiling modern GTK libraries on vanilla SVr4 is pretty well impossible too as they've become too Linux-centric. The most recent require systemd compatible sub-systems and dbus. They don't compile on Sun/Oracle Solaris 10, which is a more modern SVr4 derivative.

Really? Are you sure you are not confusing that with the Gnome libraries? You can still compile them on BSD.

Pretty sure Firefox taking a gig of ram is 1) extensions, two mostly shared memory. Memory on a Linux system is weird to say the least.

Anyhow, I recall wh re n I first used Linux it was with a 128MB Pentium 2, and even then it swapped like crazy occasionally. Even MiNT with full unux userland is a much smaller memory footprint. I tend to think some of this is due to massive code bloat that older systems just don't have. There is a reason we don't see Java for m68k.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby mfro » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:19 am

On Linux, exactly measuring a single process' memory usage is anything but simple. ps ax gives misleading information in that it reports reserved (mapped) pages for a process and not really *used* memory; if a process uses shared libraries and/or multiple threads (both applies to Firefox), shared pages will be reported multiple times.

ps output basically reports reserved pages although they might never be written (remember, Linux is copy-on-write) - output is more like "potential" memory usage or "blocked address space".

There are tools available that report real memory usage more accurate. ps_mem.py (available on github) reports something like 300 MB for a running Firefox with 6 tabs open (which is huge as well, but far from 1GB).

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby mzry » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:08 am

Debian on TT would be very cool. More useful than a historical version of Unix (although still cool)
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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby mfro » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:44 pm

mzry wrote:Debian on TT would be very cool. More useful than a historical version of Unix (although still cool)


Way too slow. It's even slow on Aranym which is magnitudes faster than a TT.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby ThorstenOtto » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:31 pm

mfro wrote:It's even slow on Aranym which is magnitudes faster than a TT.


I'm not sure whether Aranym is really magnitudes faster in this case. Remember that, unlike eg. qemu, Aranym also emulates the MMU, and all kernel code. MMU emulation slows down Aranym quite a lot, and JIT can't be used with MMU either.

My first experiences with linux was actually on a TT. Well, quite old version, something like 1.2 or so, and at that time 16 MB were more than enough.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby mfro » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:41 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:My first experiences with linux was actually on a TT. Well, quite old version, something like 1.2 or so, and at that time 16 MB were more than enough.


I had Debian 2.0 (1995, 2.0.34 kernel) running on my TT when they were still supporting m68k officially (actually, 2.0/hamm was the first version that had official support for Atari TT and Falcon) and that already felt (somewhat) slower than ASV. It had ET4000 support, however (which was nice) but crashed pretty regularly.

Compared to today's distributions, it was just tiny. Forget about running more current (4.x) kernels.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby Galvez » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:31 pm

I played with Debian in my CT60 Falcon 5 years ago. I installed Debian 7 (Wheezy) sid. The kernel version was 3.7. At 66 Mhz it took around 5 minutes to get to the login screen, installing packages was also quite slow. I think to remember that one of the problems was that the kernel should be loaded in ST-RAM to work.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby ThorstenOtto » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:38 pm

Galvez wrote: I think to remember that one of the problems was that the kernel should be loaded in ST-RAM to work.


I don't know how large a m68k kernel would be, but on a pc the bz2 compressed kernel is ~8MB. It would be impossible to load&decompress it in ST-RAM.

Edit: found some 4.0.0 kernel, which is ~1.7MB. That would fit, but you also have to load the initrd.

The problem here is that up-to-date packages often require an up-to-date glibc, and that will usually only run on an up-to-date kernel, since it does not always has fallbacks for non-existing system calls.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby Galvez » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:30 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
Galvez wrote: I think to remember that one of the problems was that the kernel should be loaded in ST-RAM to work.


I don't know how large a m68k kernel would be, but on a pc the bz2 compressed kernel is ~8MB. It would be impossible to load&decompress it in ST-RAM.

Edit: found some 4.0.0 kernel, which is ~1.7MB. That would fit, but you also have to load the initrd.

The kernel was smaller than 4 MB. I searched in the emails from that time and I found this:
Note that the Debian kernel does not use initrd to boot (to the
finally installed system), especially as those tools are built
with klibc, which is currently still broken on m68k, and thus
contains everything needed to get into an ext3fs / from disc

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby mikro » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:33 pm

Actually I have seen a fairly recent Debian incl. X.org and XFCE running on an Atari Falcon 060 + SuperVidel quite recently. It wasn't *super slow*, just slow.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby ThorstenOtto » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:32 pm

Galvez wrote:Note that the Debian kernel does not use initrd to boot (to the
finally installed system)


The one that i used (3.16), *uses* initrd. Its about 4.5MB. But it only boots into console mode.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby Mark_G » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:45 pm

I suggest to make a new tread our split this tread.
One thread for 'Atari TT030 and Linux/Debian, etc ...' and an other or this one for 'system V'.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby alexb » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:49 pm

mfro wrote:
leech wrote:... The sad thing is that Firefox itself is a little heavy, but just browsing simple pages isn't too bad, it's the ones that are heavily written in java script and flash that just make everything chug...


I wasn't talking about running Firefox on the TT, but redirect its display to it using the X-Windows protocol. That's rather slow already...

Even if you would be able to build a recent-ish version of X11 for ASV, you wouldn't be able to use it for a Firefox session: FF doesn't run on monochrome displays, doesn't matter if they're remote or not. In fact, a lot of "modern" X11 software has a really bad time dealing with monochrome displays.

Possibly something like VNC might work, if you manage to build a VNC client for ASV :wink: (the client will try it's best at mapping to the client colour space when the Xvnc server runs at a different depth)

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby alexb » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:19 pm

tenox wrote:Another unsolved mystery so far is relinking the kernel. I was not able to do it to date.

My notes mention to "touch /stand/system to rebuild unix on the next reboot", but I don't remember if that worked on both images or not.

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Re: Atari TT030 and system V

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:38 pm

Regarding MMU support in emulators...

Aranym emulates 040 and its (simpler) MMU.

While latest Hatari can emulate those, it can emulate also 030, its MMU and instruction & data cache.


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