The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

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leech
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:15 am

1st1 wrote:
joska wrote:
leech wrote:The operating systems are definitely very different in how you configure them, but with XaAES, we should be able to make it look as nice as AfaOS does for the Amiga.


A matter of taste I guess, but I've always found Workbench just plain ugly. The current look is just tarted up versions of the 1985 Workbench. Ugly fonts, undersized widgets, boxes and frames everywhere, ugly colours and just wrong. It still looks like something designed by a demo crew in 1987.



I think Classic Workbench under Kick 3.1 looks quite nice. It's not overloaded and very configurable. I didn't had a closer look on AMiga-OS 3.9 yet, so I don't have an opinion.


OS3.9 I think tends to look about the same, though I think that is when they included AmiDock by default, and they have a big boing ball as the default wallpaper.

A side note on that, within Jeff Minter's new game, Polybius, there are giant red and white balls that you shoot!
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby christos » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:00 am

leech wrote:Wait, what? That doesn't look anything like Gnome Shell. AmiDock has been around for a long long time, and it's just a Dock, like any other dock out there. Though to be fair, Gnome did try to take some interesting 'features' from the Amiga, like the Spatial Nautilus that everyone hated. Still hard for me to get used to the way the Amiga treats every folder as a new window to be opened, but with custom icons and how it does things, it kind of makes sense. But that's a OS level thing, and not so much a look/feel thing.


Well,
Huge icons : Check
Huge Notification area on top: Check
Ugly fonts: Check

The main differences are: The application launcher that is windows like (that's a good thing)
and there are icons on the desktop.

Of course it's not going to be the same or even look the same, there is a vast difference in technology and features, but it did remind me of what I don't like about Gnome in looks and behaviour. Gnome seems to me to always need more extensions to make it usable, that everything is in the wrong place and it always refuses to work with me, as if I did something to it and it doesn't like me anymore.
i get the same feeling from it too.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:28 am

This is exactly what my Gnome desktop looks like without anything running.

I most certainly don't see any Huge Icons. This is a Debian Sid (gnome 3.24) setup. Only extensions I have enabled are openweather, system monitor, gpaste and User Themes, though I use the default so that doesn't even matter.

That's one reason I have seen people have issues, too many weird extensions. Still not sure what some of them even do. Someone said they couldn't live without the AlthernateTab extension, I enabled it, didn't notice any difference except what icon shows while alt-tabbing. I don't use alt-tab anyhow, I hit the meta key, and cycle through that way.

By the way, the notification area is completely different since Gnome 3.20(I think that's when it updated, may have been 3.22). Now it sits right under the date, so things pop up as you get notifications (like email, appointments, etc) and then if you want to look at the last few messages, you click the clock and it drops down a list. Not too different than how Windows 10 does it, except it's way down in the right corner instead of up top where most people would see it quicker.

I guess ugly fonts are subjective. I'm using the default gnome Cantarell, and they seem perfectly readable to me.

Hopefully my screenshot is readable, I scaled it down from 2560x1440 to 1280x720.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:10 am

leech wrote:Wow, I'd never thought of doing that with NEWDESK.INF. That's brilliant. Is there any sort of GUI manager for that? Like you could have it auto-rename things like AUTOSORT, XBOOT, etc do? Then you could have something like 'ACTIVITY' folder with various named INF files that could be moved around and loaded into memory.
I always thought NEWDESK.INF was just loaded on start up and contained icon placement and file associations, wasn't sure what more you could do with it.

DESTOP.INF and NEWDESK.INF by TOS 2.06 are only for saving Desktop layout, resolution, file associations, automatic run of some GEM APP (what is not to perform when loading it from Desktop, of course. Only after boot). But it deals not with AUTO folder, so does not load drivers for instance.

Snapshot function would restore machine state, as it was when saving it. It exists with hard disk game adaptations, but in this case it will be pretty much different: it must work without changing anything in running SW. Only with SW which does not change IKBD chip read - because there is code to activate snapshot save with some key combination - like Alt+F9 . Work only with SW properly written, using and allocating RAM only via TOS functions. So, snapshot will read from TOS what RAM areas are used, and saving only them. Not whole 4MB RAM for instance. Not dealing with SW what alters MFP, Timer-C, V-blank code. So, mostly for clean written GEM SW.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby dhedberg » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:17 am

leech wrote:Wow, I'd never thought of doing that with NEWDESK.INF. That's brilliant. Is there any sort of GUI manager for that? Like you could have it auto-rename things like AUTOSORT, XBOOT, etc do? Then you could have something like 'ACTIVITY' folder with various named INF files that could be moved around and loaded into memory.

I always thought NEWDESK.INF was just loaded on start up and contained icon placement and file associations, wasn't sure what more you could do with it.

XBOOT can manage multiple NEWDESK.INF files. I use that feature to get different desktops for different XBOOT configurations such as clean boot, coding, etc.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby calimero » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:05 pm

and Simple Boot manager allow moving/renaming any file before boot https://sites.google.com/site/stessential/boot-managers
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:00 pm

dhedberg wrote:
leech wrote:Wow, I'd never thought of doing that with NEWDESK.INF. That's brilliant. Is there any sort of GUI manager for that? Like you could have it auto-rename things like AUTOSORT, XBOOT, etc do? Then you could have something like 'ACTIVITY' folder with various named INF files that could be moved around and loaded into memory.

I always thought NEWDESK.INF was just loaded on start up and contained icon placement and file associations, wasn't sure what more you could do with it.

XBOOT can manage multiple NEWDESK.INF files. I use that feature to get different desktops for different XBOOT configurations such as clean boot, coding, etc.


Yeah, I knew that about XBOOT. It seems the way AtariZoll is describing NEWDESK.INF is that you could have TOS load any .INF file and change around the layout of your desktop. I think it was only in TOS 4.x that you could also specify resolution, right?
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:07 pm

leech wrote:Yeah, I knew that about XBOOT. It seems the way AtariZoll is describing NEWDESK.INF is that you could have TOS load any .INF file and change around the layout of your desktop. I think it was only in TOS 4.x that you could also specify resolution, right?

It is at TOS 2.06. It will save info about current resolution, and will set Desktop in that res when load INF or boot. Otherwise no sense - every layout is for given resolution.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:49 pm

Ha ha. The one thing I always liked about the Amiga Workbench is the 'animated' icons (granted they were just highlighted/unhighlighted, but they could be different.) That and they didn't really have a standard size (which is a plus / minus I guess depending on your perspective.)
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby EmpireAndrew » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:04 pm

I've always hated the oversized icons on Workbench here and there as given the limited screen resolutions they never seemed appropriate...

The "animation" was cool though.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby dhedberg » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:23 pm

leech wrote:Ha ha. The one thing I always liked about the Amiga Workbench is the 'animated' icons (granted they were just highlighted/unhighlighted, but they could be different.) That and they didn't really have a standard size (which is a plus / minus I guess depending on your perspective.)

Agree, but at least Atari added support for different icons for highlighted/unhighlighted in TOS 4, or was it even earlier? Can't remember...
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:02 pm

Yeah, it was definitely TOS 4+ TOS 3.05/6 was basically the same as 2.05/6 except that they had TT resolutions in them. And I think they also added in the deskicon.rsc (or whatever that file was) for custom icons in 4+, since all the desktop replacements could use something like that already.

Shame TOS 5.x never appeared.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:08 pm

EmpireAndrew wrote:I've always hated the oversized icons on Workbench here and there as given the limited screen resolutions they never seemed appropriate...

The "animation" was cool though.


Yeah, I think most typical desktop icons were pretty large, but not terrible if you used something like 640x400, but the interlacing sure was terrible... I really liked the MagicWB icon set. One feature I really like on the Amiga is the pull down screen that could have independent resolutions. Still the only system that can do that.

I do have a funny story to share about TOS.

When I first went to the store to get an ST. The salesman had stated that "even a Monkey could figure out how to use this." and I went home with a Mega STe with TOS 2.05.

Then a few years later, a guy I was friends with was trying to use it, he was used to DOS. He said he couldn't figure out how to load up a game. "Double click here, on C, double click on Games, scroll down to said game, double click on the folder, find PRG, double click, and you have game." vs me on his computer... 'cd C:\stuff\games\strategy\micropose\castles\' then of course 'dir' and finally 'castles.exe' (or was it COM? half the time it was one or the other... )

I'm probably remembering that wrong, I do remember it was six directories deep, and DOS doesn't have tab completion like bash...
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby dhedberg » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:39 pm

leech wrote:
EmpireAndrew wrote:Yeah, I think most typical desktop icons were pretty large, but not terrible if you used something like 640x400, but the interlacing sure was terrible... I really liked the MagicWB icon set. One feature I really like on the Amiga is the pull down screen that could have independent resolutions. Still the only system that can do that.

Actually, the Falcon can do that as well. I once made a demo screen (never released as usual) that used a 320 pixels wide upper part and 640 pixels wide lower part (I think I used the 8 -bitplane mode).
If I remember correctly I came to the conclusion that some of the hardware registers of the Videl have an almost immediate effect (scanned every horizontal blank interrupt?) and if you were careful you could split the screen in two different resolutions. I don't think it's been seen in any released demo yet though.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:30 pm

Awesome! The Videl is seriously impressive. It's too bad Atari abandoned the Falcon so soon into it's life and went full on Jaguar instead.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:23 pm



Yes, nice and clean.
Very usable.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby farvardin » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:39 pm

it reminds me a bit of BeOS (now Haiku) or QNX.

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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:29 am

Thanks! That's what I'm talking about.

That brings up something, so from what I had read a while back, MyAES is open source just like XaAES, right? But it seemed to me most people thought MyAES wasn't quite feature complete yet, whereas XaAES was. Is that correct? I know most MiNT distributions come with Xa vs My.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby vido » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:31 am

MyAES is not open source. But it is free.
I use MyAES recently instead of XaAES. I like it more. But XaAES is also great.
Olivier is doing really great job!

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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby OL » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:57 pm

leech wrote:Thanks! That's what I'm talking about.

That brings up something, so from what I had read a while back, MyAES is open source just like XaAES, right? But it seemed to me most people thought MyAES wasn't quite feature complete yet, whereas XaAES was. Is that correct? I know most MiNT distributions come with Xa vs My.


MyAES is not open source, it is only free, I don't think any distribution come with MyAES

What feature is not implemented? At my known PDLG is not implemented and extended AES object (I have no documentation on this and I don't know any software using it), but except this I not see, for very old application more design for single task the compatibility is lower than XaAES. For new feature MyAES is I think is more advanced than any AES. The next version (0.97) is really nice, there is some beta already running. The new version is not yet available because I work now on new desktop and I found a crazy bug in MyAES, but should be fixed soon.

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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:50 pm

OL wrote:
leech wrote:Thanks! That's what I'm talking about.

That brings up something, so from what I had read a while back, MyAES is open source just like XaAES, right? But it seemed to me most people thought MyAES wasn't quite feature complete yet, whereas XaAES was. Is that correct? I know most MiNT distributions come with Xa vs My.


MyAES is not open source, it is only free, I don't think any distribution come with MyAES

What feature is not implemented? At my known PDLG is not implemented and extended AES object (I have no documentation on this and I don't know any software using it), but except this I not see, for very old application more design for single task the compatibility is lower than XaAES. For new feature MyAES is I think is more advanced than any AES. The next version (0.97) is really nice, there is some beta already running. The new version is not yet available because I work now on new desktop and I found a crazy bug in MyAES, but should be fixed soon.

Olivier


Thanks for the info! It may have been a long while since I was researching which one to go with that said MyAES wasn't feature complete, and with all things Atari, I may have read it 2 years ago and it was a post that was 4 years old...

On the thought of Open Source vs Free. It's awesome to give it away for free, though with Atari software, not much is still commercial, but wondering why not just open source it? The biggest advantage is if someone gets bored of working on a project, then they can do a code dump and let others take over.

There was this great remake of Racing Destruction Set that someone was working on, then decided to stop work, and instead of open sourcing it, that work is now just dead.

Anyhow, I'm sure you have your reasons, I need to give MyAES a try, probably will in the next few days when I get me some time.
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby OL » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:03 pm

leech wrote:
OL wrote:
leech wrote:Thanks! That's what I'm talking about.

That brings up something, so from what I had read a while back, MyAES is open source just like XaAES, right? But it seemed to me most people thought MyAES wasn't quite feature complete yet, whereas XaAES was. Is that correct? I know most MiNT distributions come with Xa vs My.


MyAES is not open source, it is only free, I don't think any distribution come with MyAES

What feature is not implemented? At my known PDLG is not implemented and extended AES object (I have no documentation on this and I don't know any software using it), but except this I not see, for very old application more design for single task the compatibility is lower than XaAES. For new feature MyAES is I think is more advanced than any AES. The next version (0.97) is really nice, there is some beta already running. The new version is not yet available because I work now on new desktop and I found a crazy bug in MyAES, but should be fixed soon.

Olivier


Thanks for the info! It may have been a long while since I was researching which one to go with that said MyAES wasn't feature complete, and with all things Atari, I may have read it 2 years ago and it was a post that was 4 years old...

On the thought of Open Source vs Free. It's awesome to give it away for free, though with Atari software, not much is still commercial, but wondering why not just open source it? The biggest advantage is if someone gets bored of working on a project, then they can do a code dump and let others take over.

There was this great remake of Racing Destruction Set that someone was working on, then decided to stop work, and instead of open sourcing it, that work is now just dead.

Anyhow, I'm sure you have your reasons, I need to give MyAES a try, probably will in the next few days when I get me some time.


Perhaps there is some feature not implemented but I don't know wich one! Perhaps they want speak about very specific function from Magic and NAES, some are undocumented and other I not see the need to implement it or simple I don't like ;-) or partially implemented (this is the case of Magic file selector).
Why not open source, for 4 reasons :
- AES is quite complex piece of software, it is very easy to broke system, not easy to test it (it's not classical software with its bugs, if you try fix something for one software perhaps it can not work for another!), when XaAES source code was put in open source I have tryed to modify it, but it was a nightmare to correct it and understand, so I have prefered start a new project from scratch and I work with several people that help me, I'm not as brilliant as Odd Skancke that do an incredible job on XaAES. So I not want correct bugs of other it's already annoying to fix my own!
- I know someone that will be happy to compil it and provide it on his website shouting he is the author of this code
- I know where I want to go, it's a long way never finished! And I want to be sure to do what I want on it!
- I know how I program, it's not easy to understand piece of software you have not write yourself, so for me it is more easy like this

When I will stop MyAES development, I will put it in open source for sure, but at this time I not see the need, there is already an open source AES, broke team in 2 is not good idea there is already too few people working on it.

If you test MyAES try beta version (only the kernel you should take other components for myaes website) : http://myaes.lutece.net/telechargement/myaes097beta.zip (june 14 2017)

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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby leech » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:21 pm

Cool thanks! I think one of the reasons I haven't tried it yet is I saw the last release was a few years ago, so wasn't sure you were still working on it.

AES sounds like modern video card drivers, where they put in work around code in games that detect the executable, then run with different code to make performance not suck. But then again modern video card drivers are bigger than an entire collection of most 8-bit software libraries...

I do agree with inheriting other people's code. Sometimes it's a nice pleasant experience, just not very often. Most of the time it is horrendous... I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine where we were discussing his old boss's attitude of 'you shouldn't comment your code, it should be plain enough that everyone can instantly see what it does.' Well, sure that's fine in theory... I'd much rather 'this function does X' myself.. so I don't have to actually read the code to know what it does. Granted I'm just starting to learn myself, I can generally read most languages and figure out what they're doing though. At least what they are supposed to be doing...
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Re: The game is on (can we make MiNT/TOS this pretty?)

Postby calimero » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:33 pm

OL wrote: The new version is not yet available because I work now on new desktop and I found a crazy bug in MyAES, but should be fixed soon.

hi Olivier,
you work on new desktop? Something like Z-Desk? :angel:

MyAES work perfectly normal with software that I use.

btw
regarding Atari AES: who add new functions?
N.AES was Atari Corp. from start or they buy it from someone?
After Atari Corp. dismiss, MagiC still continue to develop and Andreas Kromke decide what to add to AES alone?
XaAES and MyAES just implement function from existing N.AES and Magic? (I am not talking about e.g. widgets in GUI but rather AES function that are crucial for running some programs).

OL wrote: - I know someone that will be happy to compil it and provide it on his website shouting he is the author of this code


What is story behind Zbench and Kronos? From my point of view, as user, it looks like almost same piece of software so I suspect someone fork one code base...
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X


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