Falcon Problem (Solved)

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:50 pm

Looking at the boot sequence, it must be setting screen res, so the next thing after that is floppy. I assume you tried with and without a floppy drive connected..

Also i would assume when you press a key, you hear the key click sound ? If that isn't working, then something is hanging the bus up somewhere as the MC6850 is about as basic as things get. Of course the YM chip would have to init aswell to allow the sound. If no sound then possible MFP related problem ?

I guess you would have to check each thing on the bus one by one, like the DMA controls floppy, which you do not get, also you know the video circuit is working, so that rules out one IC to start with. It says floppy 0 is selected on TOS boot so you could check that line see if its getting that far.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:17 pm

Disregard
Last edited by paul92706 on Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:18 pm

exxos wrote:So just out of curiosity , what happens if you remove the RAM card and turn on in 030 mode ?

I get a pitch black screen with no video signal.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:21 pm

exxos wrote:Looking at the boot sequence, it must be setting screen res, so the next thing after that is floppy. I assume you tried with and without a floppy drive connected..

Also i would assume when you press a key, you hear the key click sound ? If that isn't working, then something is hanging the bus up somewhere as the MC6850 is about as basic as things get. Of course the YM chip would have to init aswell to allow the sound. If no sound then possible MFP related problem ?

I guess you would have to check each thing on the bus one by one, like the DMA controls floppy, which you do not get, also you know the video circuit is working, so that rules out one IC to start with. It says floppy 0 is selected on TOS boot so you could check that line see if its getting that far.

Correct i do get key press sounds at Atari logo. If the MFP wasn't working wouldn't i notice that with CT60 attached? it seemed to work with CT60 attached.I was reading the service guide, and was reading on how TOS loads up RAM with system variables, i am thinking something is going on here, maybe its not loading up system ram with variables to continue initializing the following components. I believe the Combel is first to get initialized then PSG then Videl, then MFP. So as i said i don't think its getting past setting up variables in RAM.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:29 pm

Well thats good as it all proves RAM is working, ROM is working, PSG is working along with the keyboard. There isn't much left on the bus other than the DMA. Since floppy isn't working, I would check is there is any activity around the WD1772. Normally I just unsolder the thing, but doing that causes 2 bombs normally (from memory). If it doesn't then I would assume the DMA isn't working properly. Though I haven't tried taking out the 1772 out of a falcon, but assume TOS would behave the same way.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:34 pm

paul92706 wrote:Correct i do get key press sounds at Atari logo. If the MFP wasn't working wouldn't i notice that with CT60 attached? it seemed to work with CT60 attached.I was reading the service guide, and was reading on how TOS loads up RAM with system variables, i am thinking something is going on here, maybe its not loading up system ram with variables to continue initializing the following components. I believe the Combel is first to get initialized then PSG then Videl, then MFP. So as i said i don't think its getting past setting up variables in RAM.


RAM must be working to allow TOS to boot. I don't think it would boot at all without setting up system variables first ? You know PSG is working as you get the key clicks sound, video is working and setup correctly also. If you had a RAM problem I would assume you would get some kind of garbage on the screen also. So would assume at least part of the address bus is working correctly.

MFP, assume working to some extent as it seems to control keyboard interrupt, and you know whats working... so your back to DMA again..
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:36 pm

exxos wrote:Well thats good as it all proves RAM is working, ROM is working, PSG is working along with the keyboard. There isn't much left on the bus other than the DMA. Since floppy isn't working, I would check is there is any activity around the WD1772. Normally I just unsolder the thing, but doing that causes 2 bombs normally (from memory). If it doesn't then I would assume the DMA isn't working properly. Though I haven't tried taking out the 1772 out of a falcon, but assume TOS would behave the same way.

thats a good though you got there, but when i had the CT60 attached, the Floppy worked perfect, as i transfered many files from floppy to harddrive when CT60 was attached of course. So i think that rulez that out. do you agree?
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:41 pm

exxos wrote:
paul92706 wrote:Correct i do get key press sounds at Atari logo. If the MFP wasn't working wouldn't i notice that with CT60 attached? it seemed to work with CT60 attached.I was reading the service guide, and was reading on how TOS loads up RAM with system variables, i am thinking something is going on here, maybe its not loading up system ram with variables to continue initializing the following components. I believe the Combel is first to get initialized then PSG then Videl, then MFP. So as i said i don't think its getting past setting up variables in RAM.


RAM must be working to allow TOS to boot. I don't think it would boot at all without setting up system variables first ? You know PSG is working as you get the key clicks sound, video is working and setup correctly also. If you had a RAM problem I would assume you would get some kind of garbage on the screen also. So would assume at least part of the address bus is working correctly.

MFP, assume working to some extent as it seems to control keyboard interrupt, and you know whats working... so your back to DMA again..

If i am correct i think the CT60 doesn't use the TOS on Falcon board, if thats what you mean, i believe it uses it's Flash ROM on board the CT60, so i think it bypass's the FALCON's EPROM (TOS), therefore telling me the problem is EPROM (TOS) related. I also had no problems with the DMA when CT60 was attached to FALCON, i know for a FACT when CT60 is attached it takes over the system BUS, meaning it uses DMA, Videl, Combel, IDE port, DSP, AJAX, MFP, ACIA's on board RAM. So basically i would asume to rule all thos components out if it was working with the CT60 no??
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:46 pm

paul92706 wrote:thats a good though you got there, but when i had the CT60 attached, the Floppy worked perfect, as i transfered many files from floppy to harddrive when CT60 was attached of course. So i think that rulez that out. do you agree?


I forgot it worked with CT60..

Like I said before though, if CT60 is working, then basically what it is replacing is the CPU... as DMA works with CT60, then would indicate the 060 CPU has access to the DMA, but the 030 CPU does not. I would have to again assume that one of the address lines from the 030 CPU isn't connected somewhere, probably to ROM. Again assuming whatever the ROM location is in the memory map, that the start address's can be ruled out. Probably one of the lower address lines causes TOS to loop around somewhere near the start of setting up the system up. Thats all I can really suggest.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:50 pm

paul92706 wrote:If i am correct i think the CT60 doesn't use the TOS on Falcon board, if thats what you mean, i believe it uses it's Flash ROM on board the CT60, so i think it bypass's the FALCON's EPROM (TOS), therefore telling me the problem is EPROM (TOS) related. I also had no problems with the DMA when CT60 was attached to FALCON, i know for a FACT when CT60 is attached it takes over the system BUS, meaning it uses DMA, Videl, Combel, IDE port, DSP, AJAX, MFP, ACIA's on board RAM. So basically i would asume to rule all thos components out if it was working with the CT60 no??


I think CT60 uses its own TOS404. someone else may be able to confirm this. Like you say, everything is working, so other than the 060 CPU accessing the bus, you only left with the 030 CPU and 030 TOS.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:52 pm

exxos wrote:
paul92706 wrote:thats a good though you got there, but when i had the CT60 attached, the Floppy worked perfect, as i transfered many files from floppy to harddrive when CT60 was attached of course. So i think that rulez that out. do you agree?


I forgot it worked with CT60..

Like I said before though, if CT60 is working, then basically what it is replacing is the CPU... as DMA works with CT60, then would indicate the 060 CPU has access to the DMA, but the 030 CPU does not. I would have to again assume that one of the address lines from the 030 CPU isn't connected somewhere, probably to ROM. Again assuming whatever the ROM location is in the memory map, that the start address's can be ruled out. Probably one of the lower address lines causes TOS to loop around somewhere near the start of setting up the system up. Thats all I can really suggest.

ah! sounds very clever, i will again go threw lower address range in bus lines to see what i can find wrong. But i could almost swear exxos, that i triple checked all those lines, would you advise me at what components to check? i would asume MPU to EPROM? i'm also all out of ideas in what the heck this can be, so strange huh. thanks kindly for your input 2 heads are better than 1, or whats left of mine hahaha! i will check this out tonight and report back soon. Thanks exxos, great man indeed!
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:03 am

I would check 030 CPU address lines to ROM.. Second you could double check CPU to ST-RAM also.

You could also check for shorts across address lines on the CPU, or indeed the ROM address lines. You could have A5 and A6 shorted for example.

I know on TOS104 it can get stuck in a resetting loop, though for me, its just a white screen, its possible the logo could come up and get stuck in a resetting loop. Though its not resetting the video else it would go out of sync. TOS could may well hit a bad instruction due to address line missing and reset part of the system I guess.

Can't say I am much help im' affraid with falcon stuff, I do own a CT60 and falcon, but thats about as far as it went with it all lol
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:53 am

exxos wrote:I would check 030 CPU address lines to ROM.. Second you could double check CPU to ST-RAM also.

You could also check for shorts across address lines on the CPU, or indeed the ROM address lines. You could have A5 and A6 shorted for example.

I know on TOS104 it can get stuck in a resetting loop, though for me, its just a white screen, its possible the logo could come up and get stuck in a resetting loop. Though its not resetting the video else it would go out of sync. TOS could may well hit a bad instruction due to address line missing and reset part of the system I guess.

Can't say I am much help im' affraid with falcon stuff, I do own a CT60 and falcon, but thats about as far as it went with it all lol

ok exxos, i checked CPU to ROM lines, all lines are good, no short. I checked all signals from CPU to ST-RAM all good no shorts. I also went around the CPU at address and data signals to check for shorts, all is clear no shorts. Man this is really really crazy!! what in the world could be happening.... i am all out of clues in what to check. :evil: So now i guess we can X out the short to address, and data bus, as it is all clear of shorts.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:45 am

Problem maybe solved, not sure though.what i found out is that my MPU is model: MC68030FE25C the last two numbers mean 25mhz. What i need is a MC6803016FE which the last two number are 16mhz.as i was talking with DML and he stated i should be fine with the MC68030FE25C. So i guess this case is still open.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:46 am

It is just the max speed of the CPU, it just means yours is 25mhz top speed. it shouldn't matter.

What do the GAL's do on the falcon ? maybe one of those is faulty ? One thing is clear though, the 060 can access the entire falcon bus and it works. So as the 030 can't, maybe the 030 is faulty ? Also I assume the TOS ROM's you used are fast enough ?
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby SteveBagley » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:16 am

exxos wrote:What do the GAL's do on the falcon ? maybe one of those is faulty ? One thing is clear though, the 060 can access the entire falcon bus and it works. So as the 030 can't, maybe the 030 is faulty ? Also I assume the TOS ROM's you used are fast enough ?


The [PG]ALs convert the 030 bus back to a 68000 bus iirc, including all the BR, BGACK, DTACK etc signals.

Speaking of which, when you removed the CT60 (I presume it plugs into the expansion connector) you did put the jumper back across pins 20 and 22 to make sure the Bus Grant signals are daisy chained properly?

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:29 pm

The Fuji logo tells us a few things.

1) The CPU is executing code - at least some code - correctly. It is responsible for indirectly getting the logo onto the screen.
2) The VIDEL is working, because it is displaying the logo
3) The RAM is working, because it holds the framebuffer displaying the logo via VIDEL
4) The ROM is working, because it contains the code responsible for drawing the logo
5) The blitter is working - at least as far as taking control of the bus - because it is responsible for physically putting the logo in the framebuffer
...however, we have no way to know if the blitter actually let go of the bus again, but it seems likely.

We are less sure about:

1) The DSP and it's clock and binding signals via the GALs
2) The NVRAM clock thingy, which also has bus control lines IIRC
3) The GALs - one gate on one GAL could be blown, causing a device (DSP?) to appear not to respond
4) The MFP and its various dependencies
5) The 6850 ACIAs and their clocks (I seem to remember the machine will kindof-boot with the kHz clock line cut, but it locks up somewhere)
6) The disk interface(s)
7) other peripherals I might have forgotten about

I would spend my time looking at the latter. Try to get a diagnostic cart since it will at least prove the core of the machine works ok, and might identify the peripheral which is hanging.

(If you could identify the place where the CPU hangs it might be possible to determine from a ROM disassembly where it got stuck / why - somebody might help you with that side of it by simply running a debugger on a working Falcon and looking at that address).

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:32 pm

exxos wrote:It is just the max speed of the CPU, it just means yours is 25mhz top speed. it shouldn't matter.

What do the GAL's do on the falcon ? maybe one of those is faulty ? One thing is clear though, the 060 can access the entire falcon bus and it works. So as the 030 can't, maybe the 030 is faulty ? Also I assume the TOS ROM's you used are fast enough ?


The GALs are miscellaneous binding logic which got left in the final version as socketed chips. They are flashable from JDEC files (I have backups somewhere). They appear to be anything that wasn't included in the COMBEL chip. One of the responsibilities is binding the CPU and DSP together but it really is a mixed bag of random glue.

I have seen problems where poor seating causes the machine to fail to boot (black screen), but they could cause a variety of weird issues if one is damaged or not properly socketed.

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:36 pm

Just thought of something - some of the accelerator upgrades involved cutting pins/tracks around the 6850 ACIAs and feeding a kHz-class clock directly to them to keep them happy. If the accelerator is removed, those lifted pins need remade / tracks restored.

Not restoring these will cause a partial boot and hang. I don't remember exactly what it looks like but this seems familiar.

Measure the clocks at the ACIA pins and follow the traces just in case it was an ex-accelerated board that wasn't pieced back together again.

Also check the same for the SDMA chip clock line, which tended to be cut, and the DSP clock line.

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby dml » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:37 pm

SteveBagley wrote:The [PG]ALs convert the 030 bus back to a 68000 bus iirc, including all the BR, BGACK, DTACK etc signals.
Steve


Sorry to repeat your post above - for some reason my browser had the old version of this thread without your message!

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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:03 pm

exxos wrote:It is just the max speed of the CPU, it just means yours is 25mhz top speed. it shouldn't matter.

What do the GAL's do on the falcon ? maybe one of those is faulty ? One thing is clear though, the 060 can access the entire falcon bus and it works. So as the 030 can't, maybe the 030 is faulty ? Also I assume the TOS ROM's you used are fast enough ?

Seems, like the MPU is floating address's and required signals are being asserted, so maybe MPU is ok. TOS ROM i have are 0 wait states so there fast enought.
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:09 pm

dml wrote:The Fuji logo tells us a few things.

1) The CPU is executing code - at least some code - correctly. It is responsible for indirectly getting the logo onto the screen.
2) The VIDEL is working, because it is displaying the logo
3) The RAM is working, because it holds the framebuffer displaying the logo via VIDEL
4) The ROM is working, because it contains the code responsible for drawing the logo
5) The blitter is working - at least as far as taking control of the bus - because it is responsible for physically putting the logo in the framebuffer
...however, we have no way to know if the blitter actually let go of the bus again, but it seems likely.

We are less sure about:

1) The DSP and it's clock and binding signals via the GALs
2) The NVRAM clock thingy, which also has bus control lines IIRC
3) The GALs - one gate on one GAL could be blown, causing a device (DSP?) to appear not to respond
4) The MFP and its various dependencies
5) The 6850 ACIAs and their clocks (I seem to remember the machine will kindof-boot with the kHz clock line cut, but it locks up somewhere)
6) The disk interface(s)
7) other peripherals I might have forgotten about

I would spend my time looking at the latter. Try to get a diagnostic cart since it will at least prove the core of the machine works ok, and might identify the peripheral which is hanging.

(If you could identify the place where the CPU hangs it might be possible to determine from a ROM disassembly where it got stuck / why - somebody might help you with that side of it by simply running a debugger on a working Falcon and looking at that address).

Ah! great advice DML, anyhow i also forgot to state that there was a problem with the DSP SRAM circuitry, one trace from a dataline was totally gubbed, so i had to reroute that trace, i also replaced the SRAM's. Also when i had my CT60 attached, there was no sound outputting from DSP, also i replaced DSP proccessor, but DSP was poccessing data. I am thinking may problem in this area??? also on ACIA U52 pins 3,4 look like they had some sort of wires attached, because there is solder blob on those pins, i asume they are 500khz signals, so who ever owned this board previous, had some mod on there. Maybe something is wierd around these areas. Also i am waitiing for my 32 channel Logic Analyzer to do some full decoding on address lines, hopefully pinpoint were this fault is at.
Last edited by paul92706 on Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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paul92706
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:11 pm

dml wrote:
exxos wrote:It is just the max speed of the CPU, it just means yours is 25mhz top speed. it shouldn't matter.

What do the GAL's do on the falcon ? maybe one of those is faulty ? One thing is clear though, the 060 can access the entire falcon bus and it works. So as the 030 can't, maybe the 030 is faulty ? Also I assume the TOS ROM's you used are fast enough ?


The GALs are miscellaneous binding logic which got left in the final version as socketed chips. They are flashable from JDEC files (I have backups somewhere). They appear to be anything that wasn't included in the COMBEL chip. One of the responsibilities is binding the CPU and DSP together but it really is a mixed bag of random glue.

I have seen problems where poor seating causes the machine to fail to boot (black screen), but they could cause a variety of weird issues if one is damaged or not properly socketed.

hmmm i am begining to think maybe a gate could be blown, i will replace these GAL's just to be sure, as they are fairly cheap to replace.
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI

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exxos
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby exxos » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:13 pm

So if DSP isn't working on CT60 then thats another problem... Though as CT60 boots TOS, It would have thought TOS on the 030 wouldn't hang due to DSP related problems either ?
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paul92706
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Re: Falcon Problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:15 pm

dml wrote:Just thought of something - some of the accelerator upgrades involved cutting pins/tracks around the 6850 ACIAs and feeding a kHz-class clock directly to them to keep them happy. If the accelerator is removed, those lifted pins need remade / tracks restored.

Not restoring these will cause a partial boot and hang. I don't remember exactly what it looks like but this seems familiar.

Measure the clocks at the ACIA pins and follow the traces just in case it was an ex-accelerated board that wasn't pieced back together again.

Also check the same for the SDMA chip clock line, which tended to be cut, and the DSP clock line.

ah you got me scratching my head :wink: as mentioned there looks like there was some mod made at ACIA U52, last time i checked the signals looked to be intact, but i will go over these signals on both ACIA's as i believe they do feed of each other on a 500khz signal. What exactly is this mod DML?
Atari Falcon CT60/CTPCI 14MB+ 512mb ATI9250 + NetUSBee
Atari Falcon030 CF 4gb + NetUSBee+ 14MB Ram
Atari TT030 2meg STRAM/16meg TTRAM + Nova Adaptor +Maxtor SCSI HD + DaynaPort Pocket SCSI


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