Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Dal » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:11 am

[quote="jvas"

According to this: http://ragnar76.taurus.uberspace.de/doi ... 0b0102.htm only two pins of it must be desoldered.
The accelerator has its own CPU.[/quote]

This link is now dead?
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby qq1975b » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:38 am

On Rodolphe Czuba's website there are some memory benchmarks done:

http://rodolphe.czuba.free.fr/CT2/english/benchs.htm
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby calimero » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:46 am

qq1975b wrote:I have a Falcon with a 8MB Magnum card besides the 4 MB ST ram. If it is ok for the purpose I can do the tests you tell me (I will need the prgs).

ST Ram + Magnum has to be < 16 MB or bombs are showed. So is not possible to connect the 14 MB ST RAM card plus de Magnum ( I have tried and it crashes).

use NemBench, like Cyprian at start of this threada :)

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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby christos » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:24 pm

While we are at it, what are the values for the ST and Amiga 500?
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:43 pm

STacy with PAK 68/30

Code: Select all

NemBench v2.1 - precision CPU/FPU profiler.

Linear 32bit read (ST-Ram) -> 2.622 MByte/sec (~49%)
Linear 32bit write (ST-Ram) -> 3.573 MByte/sec (~55%)
Linear 32bit copy (ST-Ram) -> 1.575 MByte/sec (~48%)


A500

Code: Select all

BusSpeedTest 0.07 (mlelstv) Buffer:    16384 Bytes
==================================================
chip      readw  1051.3ns    1.9MByte/s
chip      readl  1052.6ns    3.8MByte/s


A4000

Code: Select all

BusSpeedTest 0.07 (mlelstv) Buffer:    16384 Bytes
==================================================
chip      readw   904.8ns    2.2MByte/s
chip      readl   905.2ns    4.4MByte/s
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby christos » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:31 pm

Is that with the 68030 on? I am not sure if it would make a difference anyway. Interesting how slow the a4000 bus speed is.
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:41 am

Nembench doesn't work on 68000
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby qq1975b » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:11 am

christos wrote:Is that with the 68030 on? I am not sure if it would make a difference anyway. Interesting how slow the a4000 bus speed is.


Yes, which kind of A4000? With A3630 (68030) or with A3640 card (68040).

I can do tests on different machines from Atari and Commodore (I have some... :oops: ), just ask which ones you are interested in :)

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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:32 am

that's cool

here you can find BusSpeedTest 0.19 for Amiga:
http://aminet.net/package/util/moni/bustest

and Nembench 2.1 for Atari:
http://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/rs ... BENCH.FTP/
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby calimero » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:22 pm

Cyprian wrote:Nembench doesn't work on 68000

Bummer!
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby christos » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:11 pm

Is there some other tool with which can measure bus speed?
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby DarkLord » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:29 pm

BTW, was that the Nembench results from my PAK 68/3 equipped STacy?

Just curious...
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:16 pm

DarkLord exactly
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby qq1975b » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:55 am

Some Amiga 4000 bustest results:

1) A4000D A3630 (68EC030 @25MHZ), 16MB Fast Ram (motherboard), +128 ZorRam Fast RAM card.
IMG_1354.JPG


2) A4000D CSMKII (6806@50MHZ), 128 MB Fast Ram on CPU Board.
IMG_1356.JPG


I can test now too, if needed:
A1200 2MB chip Ram
A1200 with 68030 accel. board and 32MB FastRam
A600 4MB FastRam,
A4000D with a WarpEngine (68040@40 with 128MB FastRAM) and 16MB on motherboard
A2000 with&without 68030@25 (4MB Fast Ram on CPU card) and 2 MB on Zorro II card
A3000 with A3640 68040@25 (in a week or two...I am working on it).

I suppose only A1200 is needed for this thread, is that right?

On Atari, I can test Falcon with Magnum card and a TT with Fast Ram card too. I suppose Mega STe is not needed for this thread purpose.
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:10 am

qq1975b could you please post results for Chip Ram? because figures for Fast Ram shows only CPU bus performance ().
Chip-Ram (which is equivalent of Falcon's ST-RAM) speed is limited by internal computer architecture. Therefore Chip Ram figures will show performance of machine.
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby qq1975b » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:11 am

OK! This evening.

I thought Chip RAM was similar to ST Ram and Fast Ram was similar to Fast Ram Magnum card on Falcon and TT Ram, that's why I posted FastRAM test. The problem is FastRAM on CPU board 68060...I think it is only comparable to the CT63 because is much faster than the FastRam on the motherboard.

I will post both FastRAM and ChipRAM in next tests and the chipram test of the 2 machines I have already tested :wink:

Just tell me which machines do you want to test :) .
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:52 am

qq1975b wrote:I suppose only A1200 is needed for this thread, is that right?

yes, the main idea of this topic was compare two different approaches implementation of memory bus from the same era: 32bit from A1200 (or A3000/A4000) and 16bit from Falcon

qq1975b wrote:I can test now too, if needed:
A600 4MB FastRam,

actually A600 is out of scope, but if it stock machine (with 68000), may I ask you to check Fast and Chip speed on that? I was always wondering how much faster is 68000 with fastram than with chipram

qq1975b wrote:On Atari, I can test Falcon with Magnum card

that's cool


qq1975b wrote: and a TT with Fast Ram card too. I suppose Mega STe is not needed for this thread purpose.

You can post yours figures for TT in that dedicated topic:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=17970
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby evil » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:46 pm

EvilFranky wrote:There are no other Falcon accelerators other than CT2, CT60 & AB040 that include a CPU.


These are released cards with new CPU:

- Mighty Sonic (68030)
- Afterburner 040 (68040)
- Centurbo II rev A (68030)
- Centurbo II rev B (68030)
- CT60 (68060)
- CT63 (68060)

Centurbo II rev A and rev B are quite different, much more so than CT60 and CT63.

Further a few unreleased/vapour cards:

- Hawk (68030)
- Barracuda (68040)
- Eclipse (PPC 603)
- CTX60 (68060)

Then there are a couple of boards with "FastRam" sitting on the 16-bit expansion bus. Obviously a lot slower than real 32-bit FastRam would be.

- Magnum
- Falcon FX (sometimes called BlowUP 3 (with BUS/CPU/Videl/DSP overclocking))


Of course this is just the boards with FastRam, there are numerous other accelerators for BUS, CPU, DSP and Videl.

- Skunk (CPU@32)
- Screen Resolution Card (BUS@20, CPU@40, DSP@40, Videl@40)
- BlowUP 1 and 2 (Videl@50)
- Screenblaster (Videl@50)
- Nemesis rev 1 (BUS@24, CPU@24, DSP@48, Videl@48)
- Nemesis rev 2 (BUS@25, CPU@25, DSP@50, Videl@50)
- PowerUP (CPU@32)
- Centurbo 1 (BUS@25, CPU@25, DSP@50, Videl@50)
- Phantom (BUS@25, CPU@25, DSP@50, Videl@50)

And probably a whole lot more I forgot about or never heard of :)


Some pics I've taken(-) or found(*) of the FastRam cards:

* http://ae.dhs.nu/pics/acc/afterburner040.jpg
* http://ae.dhs.nu/pics/acc/centurbo_2a.jpg
* http://ae.dhs.nu/pics/acc/centurbo_2b.jpg
* http://ae.dhs.nu/pics/acc/ct60.jpg
- http://ae.dhs.nu/pics/acc/ct63+ethernat.jpg
- http://ae.dhs.nu/pics/acc/falcon_fx.jpg
* http://ae.dhs.nu/pics/acc/mighty_sonic.jpg

Phu, sorry for long post, but sometimes I get stuck in nostalgia mode :)

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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby evil » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:57 pm

Cyprian wrote:I moved post from other topic:
Now lets try to set one pixel on the screen in 8 bit plane mode:
- A1200 line organization - 1 memory access per plane x8 planes x8 cycles per access = 64 CPU cycles;
- Falcon interleave planar organization - 1 memory access per plane x8 planes x4 cycles per access = 32 CPU cycles;


While this is perhaps true, it's a situation that almost never happen in real software.

Moving graphics is done in larger mostly linear chunks, and if you draw graphics that require pixel-by-pixel manipulation, it's done much more effective off-screen in a byte-per-pixel format and then copied to screen memory via a linear chunky-2-planar routine. But I guess you knew this already :) So in real world the A1200 bus will be on par (neglecting the frequency difference) to the Falcon one.

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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby nativ » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:28 pm

I had a Power UP 2 and a Blow UP Hard ( II ? )

I am guessing the PU2 was a Bus and CPU speeder ? maybe DSP?
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:06 pm

evil wrote:
Cyprian wrote:I moved post from other topic:
Now lets try to set one pixel on the screen in 8 bit plane mode:
- A1200 line organization - 1 memory access per plane x8 planes x8 cycles per access = 64 CPU cycles;
- Falcon interleave planar organization - 1 memory access per plane x8 planes x4 cycles per access = 32 CPU cycles;


While this is perhaps true, it's a situation that almost never happen in real software.

Moving graphics is done in larger mostly linear chunks, and if you draw graphics that require pixel-by-pixel manipulation, it's done much more effective off-screen in a byte-per-pixel format and then copied to screen memory via a linear chunky-2-planar routine. But I guess you knew this already :)

I'm wondering what of kind type of data (Byte/Word/Longwords) are mostly used in normal software. In case of demoscene I'm sure that "done in larger mostly linear chunks" are done with Longwords, but in case of normal software it will be rather Words and Bytes (e.g. in case of data packers/depackers and audio manipulations).

In case of Falcon's 16bit bus, performance Word/Longword operations should be the same, in case of 32bit bus A1200, Word operations should be twice slower that Longwords operations (and actually BusSpeedTest shows that's true)




evil wrote:So in real world the A1200 bus will be on par (neglecting the frequency difference) to the Falcon one.


That’s the case. In other words, Falcon’s 16 bit bus has no worst performance that 32bit bus in A1200.

In the past, many people were either laughing at Atari or blaming Atari for their “bad” choice. First group were usually Amigas, second one usually Atarians.
And actually sometimes they still do that (e.g. Falcon’s a thread on ppa.pl forum). Some ppl are still sure that due to 16bit bus, Falcon is actually good ol’ “slow ST” with some addons like DSP.

It seems that both groups are wrong :) . Real tests shows that Falcon’s 16 bit bus has no worst performance that 32bit bus in A1200 (and in case of Byte/Word operations has better).

Therefore my idea of this topic wasn't to show that Falcon is better from A1200 or vice versa, but to show my thoughts that Atari did really good choice at that time.
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby qq1975b » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:26 am

Hi,

Some AMIGA results:

A4000D A3630 (68EC030@25): Chipram test
IMG_1359 A4000 A3630.jpg


A1200 plain system: chipram test
IMG_1360 A1200.jpg


A1200 68EC030@40: chipram test
IMG_1361 A1200 68EC030@40.jpg


I don't know why A1200 is faster than the 40000 (with the 68EC020 config too)...maybe the OS? In the Amiga 1200 is WB3.1 and in Amiga 4000 WB3.9...

I will try to test my Falcons today. With 14MB STram card and with the Magnum 8MB FastRAM card.

The A600 too ;)

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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:02 am

thanks, now we have the real Amiga tests, mine was digged somewhere from the net.

Cyprian wrote:The A600 too

cool,
can you do also a test for fast ram in stock A1200?


Cyprian wrote:I will try to test my Falcons today. With 14MB STram card and with the Magnum 8MB FastRAM card.

cool, can you also post your results in that dedicated Falcon topic?
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23543
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby qq1975b » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:44 am

Cyprian wrote:cool,
can you do also a test for fast ram in stock A1200?


No, I can't :(

Without the expansion card, the A1200 doesn't have fastram, only 2MB Chipram
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Re: Falcon's 16bit bus myth - 32bit vs 16bit war

Postby Cyprian » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:54 am

is it CPU/Fast ram expansion card, or only Fast Ram?
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