zDesk

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Re: zDesk

Postby joska » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:33 pm

Zorro wrote:I don't use any library other than the MiNTLIB/GEMLIB.


That's very nice :) I was afraid of Windom madness...

Zorro wrote:Currently, only the image related functions are on another thread/process.
But when the first version of zDesk will be released, no action will be blocking and even with several operations at the same time, the desktop should be smooth.


This is a very nice feature. May I ask how the threading is done? Are you just using Pfork() or something more elaborate?
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Re: zDesk

Postby Zorro » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:27 pm

joska wrote:I was afraid of Windom madness...

Madness? I don't agree with you. Windom is a quite good library for beginner and the AES/VDI code is clean.

If this library did not exist, I probably would never coded on Atari.

But for a more complex project, It is clear that Windom is not suitable.


joska wrote: May I ask how the threading is done? Are you just using Pfork() or something more elaborate?

I use the standard MiNT functions. There's no complex functions behind it.

And it will become even simpler because in the futur, I could put this process in an external binary( because of MiNTlib problems).

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Re: zDesk

Postby Rajah Lone » Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:31 am

Brillant, impressive and awesome! Bravo and thanks for your work.

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Re: zDesk

Postby joska » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:52 pm

Zorro wrote:Madness? I don't agree with you. Windom is a quite good library for beginner and the AES/VDI code is clean.


The problem with Windom is that applications made with Windom tends to look... well... French. By that I mean slightly weird and non-standard, like a Citroën ;)
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Re: zDesk

Postby OL » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:44 am

joska wrote:
Zorro wrote:Madness? I don't agree with you. Windom is a quite good library for beginner and the AES/VDI code is clean.


The problem with Windom is that applications made with Windom tends to look... well... French. By that I mean slightly weird and non-standard, like a Citroën ;)


Strange to said this by definition a high level GEM library is non standard because it supply to the system! We can said this exactly the same for other libs. I think a lot of people forgot most library have been wrote far long time ago to add new feature or add compatibility on old system with new system. Probably it's a little strange today to write modern application on TOS system but at this time this was one of our goal.
Secondly if all do standard things this is the end of imagination, the end of new applications, new car etc... Standard is only a non-standard thing that come standard, of course there is not a lot of new things that come standard!
Today it's simple you want a standard computer take a PC, you want more standard application compil linux applications but in this case why stay on Atari? Application work worth generally than on the original computer they was develop.

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Re: zDesk

Postby calimero » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:56 am

OL wrote:Secondly if all do standard things this is the end of imagination, the end of new applications, new car etc... Standard is only a non-standard thing that come standard, of course there is not a lot of new things that come standard!

nicely said. :)
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Re: zDesk

Postby joska » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:17 am

OL wrote:Strange to said this by definition a high level GEM library is non standard because it supply to the system!


I don't. Please see the attached picture, and I will explain some of the reasons why I find Windom "bad".

windom.jpg


On the left there's a dialog from zView, on the right a dialog from Taskbar which doesn't use any userdefs at all.

1. It use it's own checkboxes even when they don't offer anything over the built-in AES checkboxes.
2. The multipage control is nice, but it draws it's own background. Compare it with the frame-boxes in the dialog on the right. See the difference? Where's the background texture?
3. Why the special Cancel/OK buttons? They don't offer anything over plain AES buttons that has existed since 1985, they only look different.

The result is a dialog that doesn't adapt to the AES it's running under. When you add global features to the AES (which you of all knows) it won't be used by this dialog - it will look the same forever. As a result it sticks out like a sore thumb when you compare it to other applications. And that's not a good thing, consistency is a very important factor when it comes to GUI design. This example is particularly bad because parts of it is AES objects and looks like AES objects, while others are userdefs and doesn't look like it belongs here at all.

I'm *not* saying that you shouldn't invent new things. After all, "modern" GUI apps isn't possible without some custom objects like multipage controls and usable editfields. But I'm saying that is has to be done properly so it doesn't look out of place.

Edit: Just want to point out that this doesn't change the fact that zView is a brilliant piece of software :)
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Re: zDesk

Postby wongck » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:18 pm

Can the library be easily substituted by another?
Then one can change it to what ever ones like.
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Re: zDesk

Postby Zorro » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:48 pm

joska wrote:I don't. Please see the attached picture, and I will explain some of the reasons why I find Windom "bad".


I understand your point of view. I like to use the standard AES OBJECT too, but again, Windom is not bad.

Technically, the AES code is much cleaner that many applications, the API easy to use, open source, stable and very well documented( and in ENGLISH :coffe: ).

These qualities make Windom the best library available for a beginner.

Now, feel free to describe it as bad just because you don't like its USERDEF objets but personally I find that meaningless( especially that the modifications to have standard AES objects are easy to do, matter of minutes).


joska wrote:Why the special Cancel/OK buttons? They don't offer anything over plain AES buttons that has existed since 1985, they only look different.


First, this library has been created at a time when the AES OBJECTs were not textured, at a time when XAAES was ugly and slow, at a time when MyAES did not exist.

The idea of the developers was to allow users the possibility to customize nearly every OBJECTS of an applications according to their personal taste through a global preferences program.

Do you know MUI on Amiga? Well, the concept is the same.

You don't like the look of an application? No problem, open the global preferences panel, 2 clicks and the ugly GUI will look like that:

Image

I think that now, you should understand why even the buttons are drawn by USERDRAW.


But it's useless to speak about that, I'm not the Windom developper and I don't use this library anymore.

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Re: zDesk

Postby calimero » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:50 pm

joska wrote:On the left there's a dialog from zView, on the right a dialog from Taskbar which doesn't use any userdefs at all.

1. It use it's own checkboxes even when they don't offer anything over the built-in AES checkboxes.
2. The multipage control is nice, but it draws it's own background. Compare it with the frame-boxes in the dialog on the right. See the difference? Where's the background texture?
3. Why the special Cancel/OK buttons? They don't offer anything over plain AES buttons that has existed since 1985, they only look different.


Google say hello to you! :) (just joking)

but check this out:

Screen Shot 2013-04-02 at 18.42.03.png


Google also use custom dropdown menu instead of system!

- this custom menu has no functionality like system dropdown menu(!): you can not press e.g. "e" and jump to "english" - it just look different and have even LESS functionality that system component!
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Re: zDesk

Postby OL » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:30 pm

joska wrote:
OL wrote:Strange to said this by definition a high level GEM library is non standard because it supply to the system!


I don't. Please see the attached picture, and I will explain some of the reasons why I find Windom "bad".

windom.jpg


On the left there's a dialog from zView, on the right a dialog from Taskbar which doesn't use any userdefs at all.

1. It use it's own checkboxes even when they don't offer anything over the built-in AES checkboxes.
2. The multipage control is nice, but it draws it's own background. Compare it with the frame-boxes in the dialog on the right. See the difference? Where's the background texture?
3. Why the special Cancel/OK buttons? They don't offer anything over plain AES buttons that has existed since 1985, they only look different.

The result is a dialog that doesn't adapt to the AES it's running under. When you add global features to the AES (which you of all knows) it won't be used by this dialog - it will look the same forever. As a result it sticks out like a sore thumb when you compare it to other applications. And that's not a good thing, consistency is a very important factor when it comes to GUI design. This example is particularly bad because parts of it is AES objects and looks like AES objects, while others are userdefs and doesn't look like it belongs here at all.

I'm *not* saying that you shouldn't invent new things. After all, "modern" GUI apps isn't possible without some custom objects like multipage controls and usable editfields. But I'm saying that is has to be done properly so it doesn't look out of place.

Edit: Just want to point out that this doesn't change the fact that zView is a brilliant piece of software :)



I understand very well, I agree with you but as I said this library is around 15 years old! I know it because far long time ago I work with Dominique Bereziat on other programs, and use userdef was the most simple solution use at this time to do it, personally I never use it and made my own lib 20 years old. But look in the photo of the dialog box you present, this is not a dialog box in fact there is tabs, this was very modern when Widom have proposed this and today no AES is able to do it yet! Ok check box and background are not as expected but very near of TOS4, but who could imagine at this date there will have background on dialog box or on desk, all software where made like this (example Jinnee for it's desktop can't receive background photo, Thing use userdef to for it's desk you should force it even Teradesk do it (before we can put a photo as desk this software use simple box, but when MyAES come with is background photo Djordje change the box by an userdef to be able to display as a simple box, incredible!) (except if you put all to white)) . Windom work on all systems and propose a lot of features.
Other problem it is sometime difficult to create object tree and more easy to have only one userdef and the problem under most AES (and this is the case of XaAES) you can't call from it an objc_draw() this look incredible but the true unfortunately, so lib need to redraw by itself in userdef!

Now there is source code, so it is possible to fix it.

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Re: zDesk

Postby wongck » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:29 pm

calimero wrote:Google also use custom dropdown menu instead of system!

- this custom menu has no functionality like system dropdown menu(!): you can not press e.g. "e" and jump to "english" - it just look different and have even LESS functionality that system component!


Have you seen the new Windows 8 or the new Microslop Office 2013??
They all looks like SH!T and flat and no texture and no sidebar (nor widgets), no START and whatever bad thing you can think of.

Why is it like that.....

That's because they are getting ready their OS and APPS for their mobile revolution using touch screen ( right, they are late as usual ).
On the mobile you have large buttons and keyboard takes half the screen (OK, so my 4.7" screen is not big enough :( ).
So pressing for the on-screen keyboard and pressing E is slower than swipes (or it is not depending on the user).

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Re: zDesk

Postby calimero » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:31 am

wongck wrote:
calimero wrote:Google also use custom dropdown menu instead of system!

- this custom menu has no functionality like system dropdown menu(!): you can not press e.g. "e" and jump to "english" - it just look different and have even LESS functionality that system component!


Have you seen the new Windows 8 or the new Microslop Office 2013??

no. I do not use Windows.

I use Atari as primary machine until 1999. (than in short time Mac - but it was to expensive) and PC Windows from 1999-2006. After 2006. Mac again.

That's because they are getting ready their OS and APPS for their mobile revolution using touch screen ( right, they are late as usual ).

I should not spread thread but in short: Microsoft is to late now. And he certainly does not have same strength as in 90s. I am pretty sure that they will finaly fade... OS or paper-simulation business (aka Word) soon will be worthless. Database/information/search/presentation(product) are everything.
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Re: zDesk

Postby wongck » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:38 am

calimero wrote:After 2006. Mac again.

Good choice.

Will be great to get zDesk as a modern desktop looking on our Atari machines.
I can't wait. :D
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Re: zDesk

Postby joska » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:33 pm

OL wrote:I understand very well, I agree with you but as I said this library is around 15 years old!


Exactly.

OL wrote:is tabs, this was very modern when Widom have proposed this and today no AES is able to do it yet!


Yes, this is a very good example of where userdefs is appropriate. But it has to be done right. In the example I gave WinDOM draws it's own background in the multipage object. It doesn't have to. It should let the AES handle this, this is much more future-proof.

OL wrote:Ok check box and background are not as expected but very near of TOS4, but who could imagine at this date there will have background on dialog box or on desk,


Exactly, who could imagine. That's why you let the AES do it's work unless it just doesn't offer the functionality you need. That will allow the application to evolve with the AES, instead of looking dated and out of place.

OL wrote:all software where made like this (example Jinnee for it's desktop can't receive background photo, Thing use userdef to for it's desk you should force it even Teradesk do it (before we can put a photo as desk this software use simple box, but when MyAES come with is background photo Djordje change the box by an userdef to be able to display as a simple box, incredible!) (except if you put all to white)) . Windom work on all systems and propose a lot of features.


Neither Thing! nor TeraDesk has any problems with object textures/gradients or desktop backgrounds under XaAES. In fact, I hardly ever see a program that does.

OL wrote:Now there is source code, so it is possible to fix it.


Indeed.
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Re: zDesk

Postby Knezzen » Sun May 19, 2013 5:24 pm

When can we expect a release from you, Zorro?
I can't wait to try this! Looks absolutely incredible! [smilie=greencolorz4_pdt_01.gif]

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Re: zDesk

Postby Zorro » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:53 am

Knezzen wrote:When can we expect a release from you, Zorro?


Main post updated with a new video. :wink:

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Re: zDesk

Postby DarkLord » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:28 am

This is looking very slick indeed. Thanks for all your hard work.

Kinda reminds me of that Black Scorpion desktop that never saw
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Re: zDesk

Postby calimero » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:47 am

This will be more user friendly and more functional than M$ Windows ever was!

It is really impresive that one man would implement almost all functionality of today Mac Finder or Windows Explorer!!

On decade old computer!

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Re: zDesk

Postby Dal » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:13 am

I agree - this is a gorgeous looking desktop. Really looking forward to the beta.
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Re: zDesk

Postby wongck » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:21 am

Wow.... very nice indeed !!! :D
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Re: zDesk

Postby cyberish » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:56 am

... can't wait. GREAT !!!

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Re: zDesk

Postby CiH » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:36 pm

Yes, this is coming along nicely :-)
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Re: zDesk

Postby nativ » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:30 pm

wongck wrote:
calimero wrote:After 2006. Mac again.

Good choice.

Will be great to get zDesk as a modern desktop looking on our Atari machines.
I can't wait. :D


I'd feel happier if I could run an Atari AES environment on the PC or the MAC ;)

looks great! 8)
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Re: zDesk

Postby wongck » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:35 pm

nativ wrote:I'd feel happier if I could run an Atari AES environment on the PC or the MAC ;)

looks great! 8)


You can on an emulator called Aranym.
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