RACER Falcon (new game)

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby LaurentS » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:22 pm

> NGF, I didn't know this game, it looks nice.
I like the road barrer on the sides of the road and the buildings into the town.
Do you think it's tridi or sprite ?


For all, could someone authorized put racer under pouet.net ?

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby NGF » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:37 pm

I believe it's a mix between sprites for trees and signs, 3d for buildings and cars.
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby calimero » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:36 am

it wont work on CT63 - I try RACER030.PRG: I can start game but when car appears and timer start to count down, semaphore turn light to red, red, green and when timer come down to 15sec. and green light turn on game freeze (music continue to play)!

when I turn off CT63 game runs flawless in RACER030.PRG but in RACERDSP.PRG music is distorted and occasionally, during game play, game freez for second with hising sound and than continue.

My Falcon is not modified anyhow except CT63 + SuperVidel.
I try Racer in RGB mode.
I boot it with ctrl key pressed.

---

Otherwise, game is really impresive! Great speed and playbility!

Maybe you could add fake shadow under car, I think it would look much nicer.
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby calimero » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:05 am

LaurentS wrote:For all, could someone authorized put racer under pouet.net ?

I put it on https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62163
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby LaurentS » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:51 am

calimero wrote: LaurentS a écrit:For all, could someone authorized put racer under pouet.net ?


I put it on https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62163


Thanks a lot for this.

For your information, I'm curently working on Racer V1.1 by adding the 4 levels I didn't have time to implement in racer V1.0
You'll be able to drive your car :
- on the moon
- in a paradisiac island
- in the mountains
- in a 8th level not yet defined (if you have suggestions ... ;)

I'm trying to take into account some of the remarks, but I won't add them all.

Regards

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby NGF » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:07 pm

I don't know what levels already are in place but 8th could be:
Snow landscape
Desert
Night with city lights in background
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby dma » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:45 pm

Yes low visibility night highway track as in Lotus 2 would be cool. ;)

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby calimero » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:50 pm

^
^^

agree :)

and maybe you could also add animation on wheel - something like flickering which will speed up as you speed up?


@LaurentS can you do something with CT63 problem? Is there anything that I can do to help you to debug it?
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby LaurentS » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:28 pm

Hi,

> @LaurentS can you do something with CT63 problem? Is there anything that I can do to help you to debug it?

I find the problem strange. When testing under Hatari (which is running too fast the 68030 side), I get the same problem as you (ie: DSP version freezes 1 second and continues).
Are you sure that when disabling the supervidel + ct63 + ... your Falcon returns to the standard Falcon speed, quartz frequencies, ... ?

For the CT63, I don't own one, so I won't be able to test.
What about RACERDSP.PRG under ct63 ?

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby calimero » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:49 pm

LaurentS wrote:> @LaurentS can you do something with CT63 problem? Is there anything that I can do to help you to debug it?

I find the problem strange. When testing under Hatari (which is running too fast the 68030 side), I get the same problem as you (ie: DSP version freezes 1 second and continues).
Are you sure that when disabling the supervidel + ct63 + ... your Falcon returns to the standard Falcon speed, quartz frequencies, ... ?

I am not sure. It is question for Rodolphe Czuba :)
I am sure that I disconnect properly pin on CT63 that return Falcon to original mode
and there is not additional speeders in my Falcon

can anybody else test Racer on CT6x?

LaurentS wrote:For the CT63, I don't own one, so I won't be able to test.
What about RACERDSP.PRG under ct63 ?

RACERDSP.PRG in CT63 mode is absolute same as RACE030.PRG (just sound is distorted but freeze occur at absolute same time)
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby christos » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:56 pm

I just played it for the first few tries.

First of all, congratulations for the release! It's a very ambituous game for the falcon in this time and age. So well done!

on the good:
Framerate is very good.
Sprite scaling is well done.
There is very good sense of speed.
It loads very fast :)
Controls are responsive.
It is well presented

on the not so good (not exactly bad but things that I think need improvement)...
The cars look a bit out of place. Probably a combination of the enemy cars being too large (comparing a similar car and ours in the beginning of a race) and possible the lack of somekind of animation on them (or perhaps a shadow). I think a gfx man could help a bit with that but even if that's not possible, and I know it's really hard, making them a bit smaller would help a lot.
There are some issues with the physics that I can't really pinpoint exactly. The car seems to not turn very well. being a physicist myself maybe I am not the right person (we tend to be too rigid) but if I can help at all just give me a note.
I think you need to increase the car steering on low speeds. It's very hard to get it back on the road.

The DSP executable failed on me when i tried to start the race. It didn't load the race but stayed at the press fire screen.

Other than that. It's really a great release worthy of the first place in SV.
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby Eero Tamminen » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:59 pm

christos wrote:I think you need to increase the car steering on low speeds. It's very hard to get it back on the road.


It's basically impossible to get back on the road by driving forward. Happily the car can be moved also backwards. Real cars turn faster at lower speeds, so game should do the same.

Btw. If you crash into some car, soon there's a pile of cars and you need to reverse quite a bit, to get that jam cleared. While it might be more realistic, from game play point of view it seems a bit awkward. :-)

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby LaurentS » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:38 pm

Hi,

Thaks for the interrest you put into the game.

This game is a pure arcade game, so I took some liberties with the real physic for 2 reasons :
- it was quicker to implement approximative algos than real physics engine (I'm only coding some evenings, after work, ... ;)
- the Falcon really don't need hard computing if you want to keep speed.

I've given a lot of efforts into optimisations to have a fast rendering (a game like this can't run too slowly).

Maybe one day, I'll take the time to implement a real physic engine, some shadows, some animated cars, some ...
But I'm lonely on the whole project and I do this for my and your pleasure (that's why I'll never sell anything I produce on Falcon).

If some graphists, musicians, coders want to help, it would be with great pleasure.

I'm currently adding 4 more levels.
I'll take into account some remarks from people, but I won't implement them all.

And after, I'll try something else (no idea for now ;)

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby dml » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:47 pm

One of the nasty things we did in these old car games is scale the opponent's speed by their distance from the player. Too far ahead and they start to slow down. Too far behind and they get a boost. But it has to be subtle and kept in a sensible range, just enough to prevent a boring win for good players or an impossible task for new players.

I think this was often done in the first level or two and then the later ones were less forgiving. Obviously perfect gameplay is a better option - but that became more practical with proper physics calculations :)


I agree with the comments about escaping from obstacles at the side of the road, and rate of turn at lower speeds. I also agree about using a shadow to 'ground' the car. If blending is just too costly you could always use a hatch - your fancy sprite compiler should eat that up easily.

Anyway it's great to see you're going to improve it! Definitely worth refining.

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby christos » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:29 pm

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby LaurentS » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:06 pm

Thanks a lot Christos for the video, really nice (the 2nd level is really hard to play, I'll have to do something about it ;)

DLM : at least, I think I don't have this speed problem, as all the objects are 3d -> 2d converted, so I can keep a "constant speed" for the opponent cars, and they keep a relative speed according to their tridi pos.
The same for the segments of the road, the objects on the sides of the road and the turning coins (everything is 3d -> 2d projected according to Z)

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby dml » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:14 pm

LaurentS wrote:DLM : at least, I think I don't have this speed problem, as all the objects are 3d -> 2d converted, so I can keep a "constant speed" for the opponent cars, and they keep a relative speed according to their tridi pos.
The same for the segments of the road, the objects on the sides of the road and the turning coins (everything is 3d -> 2d projected according to Z)


Ah, I was just talking about difficulty/racing aspects, not the scaling - I understand well that your sprite scale (and road) is based on z depth and works well.

However I don't think such gameplay hacks (of the kind I suggested) are really necessary here from what I could tell. I do think a shadow would help ground the cars though, even if it could just be part of the sprite itself! It does make quite a big difference to the perception of car position relative to road (strange but true).

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby dml » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:21 pm

BTW Laurent, I speak from some (painful) experiences working on plenty of car games so I'm not just making empty noises :)

I wrote the 3D engine for this game (some years back now, on PS2) and spent hours and hours (and hours) fiddling with annoying details like shadows and camera positions etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZRgG3dsts

[EDIT] errr... skip 5 mins to get into the actual game. There's a lot of 'rendered' intro sequences which don't look at all like the game.

...so I know exactly the amount of work involved and the pain of getting comments about tweaks and changes :D


I think you've done a fine job getting this done in time for SV and it's just amazing to see 2 new games appear from you in a really short period. I don't think I've seen that before.

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby LaurentS » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:41 am

dml wrote:so I'm not just making empty noises :)


I would never say this ;)

Hey, the game in the link is exactly what I would dream for our Falcon (Quite impossible with 4 megs, 16 Mhz CPU and a slow BUS, but really, this would be so great !)
Very nice tridi engine, lights, ... and good speed feeling.
Nice work.


I'm currently working on Racer V1.1, here are the main works in progress :

I've nearly finished the moon level.
mountains level is 50% finished
paradize island is 30% finished
level 8 is not yet started


> There are some issues with the physics that I can't really pinpoint exactly. The car seems to not turn very well. being a physicist myself maybe I am not the right person (we tend to be too rigid) but if I can help at all just give me a note.

For Christos, I would enjoy your help a lot. I've started to have a closer look at a "real" physical engine.
I think it's possible to implement one into Racer.
But I'm not sure I have all the infos or knowledges (my physics lesson are quite far by now) ;).
Maybe you could help a lot here.

I think I need :
P=mg (with g=9.81m/s²) and m ~= 1000 kg for the car
Air resistance ?
centrifugal force ?
the engine force ?
What about the other forces (effect and values) ?

From what I understand here, there are 2 kings of forces :
- the ones that let the car go forward or backward (back/front movement)
- the ones that let it turn, slide, ... (left/right movement)

Do these forces interract on eacjh other ? Or are they independant ?

As you can see, I'm not mature enough for a real engine lonely :oops:



For graphics, as many people asked, if someone is interrested to rework the player's car graphs to make better ones and to add shadows under the player car, just contact me, I would send you the actual pictures (5 different positions for now). The best would also to have less colors on the car, but better "palette" choice. The actual "palette" for the car is 260 colors which is absolutely not optimized, doesn't render well and eats many CPU cycles for nothing. That's the main problem with pictures taken from internet, they're absolutely not optimized like a graphist does.



Other changes planned :
- swap the up/dowd keys with button A/button B for the jagpad commands
- add a key to be able to return to the main menu during the race (ESC returns to the GEM (boss is coming key ;) )
- change the bahaviour of the game when the player collides. I like a lot the idea to have to drive backward to return to the track, so I'd like to keep it. I suggest 2 possibilities :
- adding 3 or 5 seconds to the time when a player collides
- adding more time on each level (20 seconds for example)

Other ides are welcome

Regards

Laurent

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby dml » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:00 am

Hi Laurent,

LaurentS wrote:Hey, the game in the link is exactly what I would dream for our Falcon (Quite impossible with 4 megs, 16 Mhz CPU and a slow BUS, but really, this would be so great !)
Very nice tridi engine, lights, ... and good speed feeling.
Nice work.


Thanks, but in that case the engine was made for PS2 and PS2 was made for those kind of games... indeed it's not the kind of material for our favourite Ataris.

But if I can provide some useful, limited tips/thoughts from those past experiences I will try to help along those lines :-)

LaurentS wrote:I'm currently working on Racer V1.1, here are the main works in progress :

I've nearly finished the moon level.
mountains level is 50% finished
paradize island is 30% finished
level 8 is not yet started


You are very productive. :-o

LaurentS wrote:For Christos, I would enjoy your help a lot. I've started to have a closer look at a "real" physical engine.
I think it's possible to implement one into Racer.
But I'm not sure I have all the infos or knowledges (my physics lesson are quite far by now) ;).
Maybe you could help a lot here.

I think I need :
P=mg (with g=9.81m/s²) and m ~= 1000 kg for the car
Air resistance ?
centrifugal force ?
the engine force ?
What about the other forces (effect and values) ?

From what I understand here, there are 2 kings of forces :
- the ones that let the car go forward or backward (back/front movement)
- the ones that let it turn, slide, ... (left/right movement)

Do these forces interract on eacjh other ? Or are they independant ?

As you can see, I'm not mature enough for a real engine lonely :oops:


I'm sure Christos can give plenty of advice in this area.

From a game design point of view, I feel for this game style you don't need 'complex' physics at all - the gameplay does not require it (e.g. all 4 wheels are always on the ground together, the car's don't roll, the ground under the car is flat etc. etc.). But you could do a very simple approximation of some of those dynamics which makes it feel a lot like a physics engine.

I remember that we could get convincing results with just these:

global forces:

- momentum (affects turning at speed, causes skidding)
- gravity (for bumps, if any - affects friction/grip, steering if car lifts, tyres not pressed down)
- air resistance (limits max velocity, affects different shapes of car)

car constants, internal forces:

- engine power (affects accel)
- friction / tyre type / grip (affects skidding, acceleration, braking)
- car weight (affects momentum, accel)
- brake friction

These are not hard to add as a lone coder without a physics engine, and doing more than that is probably overkill. I would avoid 'true' physics engines unless you really want to go down the rabbithole for a different kind of fun (torture). The more complexity you add the harder gameplay is to balance.


Coding tips: Physics programming is easiest of all when you have a constant framerate (change in values with respect to passing time). It gets a bit trickier if you have a varying framerate (terms require integration, so more happens between slower frames). But you can 'cheat' this - if you solve the physics the simple way on the VBL so the rate of change is fixed on each 'physics tick' ;-) it avoids the need for integration. There is a cleaner alternative to the same answer (doing physics on the VBL) - but it requires more coding and I'll only explain if if you get curious about that.

(BTW BadMood viewer does keyboard input processing and player movement on TimerC, for the same purpose - to compensate for framerate variance without physics).


Trivia: We also did some funny hacks for wind/aerodynamics, so you could 'slipstream' behind another car and catch up with it - and then it becomes harder to overtake when you moved out from behind the car due to wind (But things like that are mostly not noticed by players).


In the later games we got 'a physics PHD guy' and eventually 'a physics middleware company' to solve all the physics problems because there is really no end to how horrible it can get when you try to do everything yourself :-) Simple is good.


LaurentS wrote:For graphics, as many people asked, if someone is interrested to rework the player's car graphs to make better ones and to add shadows under the player car, just contact me, I would send you the actual pictures (5 different positions for now). The best would also to have less colors on the car, but better "palette" choice. The actual "palette" for the car is 260 colors which is absolutely not optimized, doesn't render well and eats many CPU cycles for nothing. That's the main problem with pictures taken from internet, they're absolutely not optimized like a graphist does.
Laurent


It would be great if somebody could help out here - it's a massive task doing all that stuff yourself.

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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby christos » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:44 am

I have very little to add to what dml said. Basically we don't need any rigid body physics (it's hard as physics and for calculation) and since there are a lot of divisions in those calculations it might not be the best. Basically you have 4 forces applying on the car.
Weight, the ground resistance, engine (or brakes) and friction not counting aerodynamic effects. Considering a flat surface the weight is cancelled out by the ground resistance so we get to play with friction and engine force.

When turning basically what happens is that friction plays the role of the centromole force Fc, a force that always points to the center of the circle part of the perimeter of which the curve is (in case of different shape of curves, parabolic, elliptic etc, each part will have a different center but that's probably not needed here). So you get an equation of the form
T=nmg=mv^2/r=Fc and while T>Fc the car underturns, T=Fc the car stays on course and T<Fc the car overturns where n is the friction coefficient, m the mass of the car, v its speed and r the circle's radius. When you accelerate or break during a turn, you get the force of the engine applied as well so you have a battle between the various forces. The problem with that is that those calculations need sin and cos coefficients

All the above are valid considering a flat serfice. If you take a curve that's tilted on an inclined level then you get more forces playing the role of the centromole thus increasing the speed by which the car can turn.

I am at work now, so I will do the drawings later today.
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby bullis1 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:37 pm

So does the player car alone use 260 colours, or is that palette shared between the player and opponent cars?

I have some free time later this week and can volunteer some of it to optimize & clean up your car sprites. Maybe do some more graphic work for you too. PM me if you're interested. I do have professional experience in this area.
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby calimero » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:36 pm

bullis1 wrote:So does the player car alone use 260 colours, or is that palette shared between the player and opponent cars?

I have some free time later this week and can volunteer some of it to optimize & clean up your car sprites. Maybe do some more graphic work for you too. PM me if you're interested. I do have professional experience in this area.

long and detailed description of sprite routs:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=24590&p=237681#p236873

LaurentS replay:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=24590&p=237681#p237681

:)
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby christos » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:18 pm

Hope it's readable... :)

http://imagebin.org/277889
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Re: RACER Falcon (new game)

Postby LaurentS » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:29 pm

christos wrote:When turning basically what happens is that friction plays the role of the centromole force Fc, a force that always points to the center of the circle part of the perimeter of which the curve is (in case of different shape of curves, parabolic,
elliptic etc, each part will have a different center but that's probably not needed here). So you get an equation of the form


In my case, the curves are not circles equations, but a progressive entering then a constant turning value, then a progressive ending of the curve.
Does the equation still work ?

Laurent


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