Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:57 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:Is Q2 compatible with Q1 PAKs? If yes, would it require less memory with them?


No, it's a subsequent generation of their 'id tech'. The PAK encapsulation system might be the same or similar but the level data and systems are not compatible.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby calimero » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:37 pm

dml wrote:Does Q1 already work "well enough" on CT60, or is Q2 just more fun? :-)
...
CT60 already has a decent Q1 port (PMandin?)


MiKRO/Mystic Bytes made playable Quake I port, you can find source at his homepage: http://mikro.naprvyraz.sk (download section)

dml wrote: so doing another one isn't very interesting. Although the port I did had big chunks of the rasterizer rewritten in 68k and 040 FPU, similar to Id's x86 version. It was nearly usable on a 32MHz 68040 with fastram - but not quite. That should fly on a 68060.


Although it surely would interesting to see even faster Quake on Falcon CT60! :)
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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:04 am

calimero wrote:MiKRO/Mystic Bytes made playable Quake I port, you can find source at his homepage: http://mikro.naprvyraz.sk (download section)


Ah yes sorry, we even spoke about it recently and I still managed to forget. :-z

calimero wrote:Although it surely would interesting to see even faster Quake on Falcon CT60! :)


It looked pretty fast to me :-) Although I haven't tried it first hand.

In fact Mikro did suggest we try to join some of our Q1 port efforts together to see what happens - there are several m68k variants including Amiga, our own etc.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby calimero » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:42 am

^

I am not familiar with Quake, but is there some kind of timedemo ?

it would be cool to measure FPS on CT63 vs Amiga 060 vs Pentium I CPU!
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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:56 am

calimero wrote:^

I am not familiar with Quake, but is there some kind of timedemo ?

it would be cool to measure FPS on CT63 vs Amiga 060 vs Pentium I CPU!


I don't remember but it seems likely.

I'll resurrect the 040 Quake code and clean out the 040-specific stuff so we can see if it works on 060. The main effort at the time was focused on rendering speed - I doubt anything else works (e.g. networking/deathmatch will be dead for sure, as will sound fx)

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby AnthonyJ » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:49 am

dml wrote:
Eero Tamminen wrote:Is Q2 compatible with Q1 PAKs? If yes, would it require less memory with them?


No, it's a subsequent generation of their 'id tech'. The PAK encapsulation system might be the same or similar but the level data and systems are not compatible.


The pak file format is quite different too - q2 and later all use zip while q1 had a custom container. Q1 .map files can easily be converted to q2 although the compiled map data isn't too compatible iirc.

Edit: hm, now I think about it, I am wrong - they introduced zip as the container in q3. Ignore me...

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:32 am

AnthonyJ wrote:
The pak file format is quite different too - q2 and later all use zip while q1 had a custom container. Q1 .map files can easily be converted to q2 although the compiled map data isn't too compatible iirc.

Edit: hm, now I think about it, I am wrong - they introduced zip as the container in q3. Ignore me...


Thanks Anthony, have you done any coding on Q1, Q2, Q3 level editors or tools after your GEMDeu port? If you have some knowledge in this area I might have more questions later :-)

I still haven't tried to compile GEMDeu yet as I'm only working with existing levels but I'm interested in extending GEMDeu with features specific to BM once I get it going.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby AnthonyJ » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:49 pm

Not too much on editors - I have been modding id engines since I left the Atari, and released mods for q2, q3 and q4 (as well as engine side tinkering for all 4 generations of quake) so pretty familiar with the way things are put together. I did play with making an editor for q3 but gave up pretty quickly when I realised the amount of work it would take. As shown by my reply it is a while since I touched anything other than idTech4 though!

For q2 might want to look into whether the q2map shipped with recent gtkradiant builds does a better job at making well optimised bsps for q2 as I believe someone built new compiler tools based on q3map2 (a second iteration of the q3 bsp compiler). Probably not much use for ids maps but for new content it might provide better results.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:52 pm

AnthonyJ wrote:Not too much on editors - I have been modding id engines since I left the Atari, and released mods for q2, q3 and q4 (as well as engine side tinkering for all 4 generations of quake) so pretty familiar with the way things are put together. I did play with making an editor for q3 but gave up pretty quickly when I realised the amount of work it would take. As shown by my reply it is a while since I touched anything other than idTech4 though!


:-) Then this must look a bit like archaeology by comparison.

AnthonyJ wrote:For q2 might want to look into whether the q2map shipped with recent gtkradiant builds does a better job at making well optimised bsps for q2 as I believe someone built new compiler tools based on q3map2 (a second iteration of the q3 bsp compiler). Probably not much use for ids maps but for new content it might provide better results.


I did wonder if the newer BSP tools would be better - but OTOH I see a lot of 'decay' and serious paradigm shifts in techniques as well, as machines have got immensely more powerful, they soak up a lot of problems more easily, and in different ways. The sorts of BSPs which would suit the little Atari machines best might be far from what we get from modern tools.

The most interesting technique I have played with slightly increases the complexity/depth of the BSP, and trades off some balancing, in order to greatly increase isolation of detail. The impact it has on rays cast into the tree is considerable - fewer interactions with hyperplanes, good for LOS tests and collision detection. Also good for render culling because each cull removes more details, even if the actual world area being culled is smaller.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby AnthonyJ » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:04 pm

dml wrote::-) Then this must look a bit like archaeology by comparison.

It certainly does!

I did wonder if the newer BSP tools would be better - but OTOH I see a lot of 'decay' and serious paradigm shifts in techniques as well, as machines have got immensely more powerful, they soak up a lot of problems more easily, and in different ways. The sorts of BSPs which would suit the little Atari machines best might be far from what we get from modern tools.

Yes, that is certainly possible - I know advances were made in the q3 compiler tools for getting better results with very complex and detailed levels, applying higher resolution lightmaps etc, allowing the visuals to be improved on modern hardware. Some of these changes could help low spec hardware, but equally they might make wrong assumptions when dealing with older hardware.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:52 am

Btw. While this isn't Quake related, it's a very interesting read on optimizing SW rendering code:
http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2013/02/17 ... ing-index/

See e.g. comments on the software rasterizer part about scanline vs. edge algorithms and when latter starts to make sense from the performance point of view. :-)

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:01 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:Btw. While this isn't Quake related, it's a very interesting read on optimizing SW rendering code:
http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2013/02/17 ... ing-index/

See e.g. comments on the software rasterizer part about scanline vs. edge algorithms and when latter starts to make sense from the performance point of view. :-)


Interesting to see posts on the topic of rasterization. However the scanline 'method' offered is hardly one I'd consider for realtime use :-) There are far better ways to combine edge and scanline together, so you have scanline-level occlusion with surface-level rendering, or at least the flexibility to decide how rendering proceeds (scanline-, edge- or surface-at-a-time).

Some methods are far better for hardware implementation, being simpler to execute in parallel, or speculatively across many units but would be prohibitive for a CPU.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby EvilFranky » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:00 pm

Bearing in mind how fast the 060 is, would any part of the rendering benefit from DSP assistance or will everything just process much quicker on the CPU?

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:54 pm

EvilFranky wrote:Bearing in mind how fast the 060 is, would any part of the rendering benefit from DSP assistance or will everything just process much quicker on the CPU?


It's difficult for a 32MHz DSP56k to beat a 68060 with fastram at 80+ MHz for just about anything - but in some cases it could still be used. I think it's probably most useful for music & audio though in that scenario.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby CiH » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:08 pm

t's difficult for a 32MHz DSP56k to beat a 68060 with fastram at 80+ MHz for just about anything - but in some cases it could still be used. I think it's probably most useful for music & audio though in that scenario.


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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby NovaCoder » Fri May 10, 2013 10:41 pm

Latest version....

Quake 2 AGA v1.07, if I had another 20Mhz then it would be really cool.

This port is at the end of development now, I can't do anything else with it to make it faster.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby calimero » Thu May 23, 2013 1:56 pm

NovaCoder wrote:Latest version....

Quake 2 AGA v1.07, if I had another 20Mhz then it would be really cool.

This port is at the end of development now, I can't do anything else with it to make it faster.


Port it to Falcon and you will have additional 20MHz! :) + some SD-RAM...

can you tell us some more technical things? e.g. what are biggest bottleneck? how much time you lose on C2P...?
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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Thu May 23, 2013 2:48 pm

I made a start on a port but it's paused for BadMood.

However if the AGA sources are available that could speed things along :)

All I did so far was get it to build hard-linked and run through the init sequence, before running out of ram on a base 030 machine :)

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby NovaCoder » Sat May 25, 2013 5:13 am

calimero wrote:Port it to Falcon and you will have additional 20MHz! :) + some SD-RAM...

can you tell us some more technical things? e.g. what are biggest bottleneck? how much time you lose on C2P...?


I'm no Atari coder, sorry :)

Not really sure what the biggest bottle neck is because I don't have a profiler with Amiga 68k so it's all just guesswork. The C2P is not too much of a strain at 320x240, even the graphics drawing speed is not 'too bad' at this low resolution but it does really slow down if you try and go any higher.

For this particular port, I'd say the biggest things are just lack of MIPS (mine has 106) and the other is routines for particles and lighting are very slow (very bad copies of the original x86 asm).
Last edited by NovaCoder on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby calimero » Sat May 25, 2013 9:48 am

So you rewrote these asm routs from x86 to mc68060?

Are particles and lighting only parts that are writen in asembler? Rest of quake 2 is C?
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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby NovaCoder » Sat May 25, 2013 9:44 pm

Yep 99% C, ASM taken from old Quake 1 port (scan line render routine only)

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun May 26, 2013 7:23 am

NovaCoder wrote:Quake 2 AGA v1.07, if I had another 20Mhz then it would be really cool.

This port is at the end of development now, I can't do anything else with it to make it faster.


Can you somehow reduce its memory consumption using minimal gfx options etc so that it would run in 14MB of RAM?

Based on Quake II docs, it should work in 16MB under Win95 (and Q1 in 8MB under DOS), getting that down to 14MB would allow running the code in Hatari and profiling it with Hatari's profiler (after changing Amiga specific parts to Atari ones), which would help with optimizations a lot. Hatari and Hatari's profiler are currently limited to 14MB of RAM (they don't have any support for fast-RAM, and profiler memory usage is several times the amount of emulated RAM).

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Sun May 26, 2013 8:42 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:Can you somehow reduce its memory consumption using minimal gfx options etc so that it would run in 14MB of RAM?


There is a config file where texture resolution, lightmaps etc. can be controlled. I forget all the settings now but easy to find them on various FAQs and Wikis :) You can probably do this yourself with the build I gave you - It might get a bit further.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby NovaCoder » Sun May 26, 2013 12:39 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:
NovaCoder wrote:Quake 2 AGA v1.07, if I had another 20Mhz then it would be really cool.

This port is at the end of development now, I can't do anything else with it to make it faster.


Can you somehow reduce its memory consumption using minimal gfx options etc so that it would run in 14MB of RAM?


When I first ported Yamagi Quake II it needed over 128 MB to run just the (packed) demo :lol:

I had to re-write the entire hunk allocation code to get that down to only needing 64 MB, then we discovered that if you unpacked the files first you could run the full retail game with only 64 MB.

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Re: Quake 2 ported to Amiga AGA...

Postby dml » Sun May 26, 2013 1:12 pm

NovaCoder wrote:I had to re-write the entire hunk allocation code to get that down to only needing 64 MB, then we discovered that if you unpacked the files first you could run the full retail game with only 64 MB.


Haha - ok perhaps fiddling with the config isn't going to help then, Eero :)

I just tried my old Q1 port in Hatari and it also runs out of memory :-o it allocates a 10MB surface cache, shows the console and tries to load a demo, then exits cleanly.


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