Civilization on TT

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby nativ » Mon May 23, 2011 1:13 pm

Wasn't there an old patch to run Civilization in the Falcon?
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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby bid » Mon May 23, 2011 2:01 pm

SofiST wrote:
bid wrote:...
Considering VME-IDE : Popsel made it for Mega STE. It may work on TT too, but for sure need to update driver for TT - considering problems with cache. I'm not much warmed for it. What I have already, and works pretty well on TT too is ACSI-CF adapter. Speed is same as on ST(E) machines, and not little - 2MB/sec. Likely, DMA chip is same in TT.
http://atari.8bitchip.info/astide.php - second project .


Your IDE Cart port device looks great! However, I just fancy building or considering building an internal VME card for fun. Just for myself like (as I am guessing no one else would wont it!) so that I can run IDE internally in my TT. I realise that this would not be popular with 99% of Atari users. IDE external of CF or SD is no doubt more useful.

Does anyone know who this Popsel guy is? I cant find him on the forum. I would love to see this VME IDE card for the Meta STE, even if just to admire or to look at how the VME interface has been done, and how this works. I do find unusual electronic standards like VME very interesting, and cool/retro, and understand its capability and implementation. I am betting that the TT implementation of VME is not so good as the SparcStation. But I am betting that a new VME video card would not be so hard!

This is an interesting thread regarding Civilisation. I must have spent 1000+ hours playing this a a kid. One of the only games I ever really played hard!!! Glad you like the GEM Elite. I know it is not practically possible, but what would theoretically have to be done to develop a TOS shell for GEM that runs tos programmes in a windowed environment. Perhaps someone someday will make a Steem, or Hatari Emulator for Coldfire, lol, and want to run ST games in an emulator under GEM!! lol :D

Certainly the code is in the emulators to emulate the chips of the ST. So making an Atari ST emulator for Atari based CT60 and higher would not be so hard eh? I have not had time to post on the forum much or to play with me Ataris for the last few weeks as been quite busy working for myself. But, I am hoping for fun to look a little deeper into this interesting world. Especially as to why another great favorite of mine, SIM CITY, is clearly written in Gem, but wont run in say a higher resolution. This I imagine would be an easy(er) port to a fully compatible, gem windowed, multi-machine compatible bit of Gem Candy!

I have to admit, that now I am a bit older, and sadder. I do like the idea of running games in multitasking on the TT!!! :D One of my favorites is the InforCom adventure games, and also TADS adventure games. I used to play these all the time on my ST, and also using Zmachine on the PC (at work). There is a great multitasking compatable progammes to run these games, and I enjoy having them on my TT desktop, alongside whatever else I am doing. Now it is possible to have Elite also! I wonder what other games, are simple to use on a larger and more powerful desktop.

I cant see Civilisation as being one of these. But it would be great if you can run from desktop and then quit back to Gem easily. This would be the equivalent of full-screen DirectX anyway! I have not tried out the patched Civ games, but I look forward to doing this once I get on top of my to-do list!!! :D
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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby bid » Mon May 23, 2011 2:01 pm

SofiST wrote:
bid wrote:...
Considering VME-IDE : Popsel made it for Mega STE. It may work on TT too, but for sure need to update driver for TT - considering problems with cache. I'm not much warmed for it. What I have already, and works pretty well on TT too is ACSI-CF adapter. Speed is same as on ST(E) machines, and not little - 2MB/sec. Likely, DMA chip is same in TT.
http://atari.8bitchip.info/astide.php - second project .


Your IDE Cart port device looks great! However, I just fancy building or considering building an internal VME card for fun. Just for myself like (as I am guessing no one else would wont it!) so that I can run IDE internally in my TT. I realise that this would not be popular with 99% of Atari users. IDE external of CF or SD is no doubt more useful.

Does anyone know who this Popsel guy is? I cant find him on the forum. I would love to see this VME IDE card for the Meta STE, even if just to admire or to look at how the VME interface has been done, and how this works. I do find unusual electronic standards like VME very interesting, and cool/retro, and understand its capability and implementation. I am betting that the TT implementation of VME is not so good as the SparcStation. But I am betting that a new VME video card would not be so hard!

This is an interesting thread regarding Civilisation. I must have spent 1000+ hours playing this a a kid. One of the only games I ever really played hard!!! Glad you like the GEM Elite. I know it is not practically possible, but what would theoretically have to be done to develop a TOS shell for GEM that runs tos programmes in a windowed environment. Perhaps someone someday will make a Steem, or Hatari Emulator for Coldfire, lol, and want to run ST games in an emulator under GEM!! lol :D

Certainly the code is in the emulators to emulate the chips of the ST. So making an Atari ST emulator for Atari based CT60 and higher would not be so hard eh? I have not had time to post on the forum much or to play with me Ataris for the last few weeks as been quite busy working for myself. But, I am hoping for fun to look a little deeper into this interesting world. Especially as to why another great favorite of mine, SIM CITY, is clearly written in Gem, but wont run in say a higher resolution. This I imagine would be an easy(er) port to a fully compatible, gem windowed, multi-machine compatible bit of Gem Candy!

I have to admit, that now I am a bit older, and sadder. I do like the idea of running games in multitasking on the TT!!! :D One of my favorites is the InforCom adventure games, and also TADS adventure games. I used to play these all the time on my ST, and also using Zmachine on the PC (at work). There is a great multitasking compatable progammes to run these games, and I enjoy having them on my TT desktop, alongside whatever else I am doing. Now it is possible to have Elite also! I wonder what other games, are simple to use on a larger and more powerful desktop.

I cant see Civilisation as being one of these. But it would be great if you can run from desktop and then quit back to Gem easily. This would be the equivalent of full-screen DirectX anyway! I have not tried out the patched Civ games, but I look forward to doing this once I get on top of my to-do list!!! :D
My company website http://www.thebigconsultant.com[/i][/color]

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby SofiST » Mon May 23, 2011 3:33 pm

bid wrote:Does anyone know who this Popsel guy is? I cant find him on the forum. I would love to see this VME IDE card for the Meta STE, even if just to admire or to look at how the VME interface has been done, and how this works. I do find unusual electronic standards like VME very interesting, and cool/retro, and understand its capability and implementation. I am betting that the TT implementation of VME is not so good as the SparcStation. But I am betting that a new VME video card would not be so hard!
....
I have to admit, that now I am a bit older, and sadder. I do like the idea of running games in multitasking on the TT!!! :D One of my favorites is the InforCom adventure games, and also TADS adventure games. I used to play these all the time on my ST, and also using Zmachine on the PC (at work). There is a great multitasking compatable progammes to run these games, and I enjoy having them on my TT desktop, alongside whatever else I am doing. Now it is possible to have Elite also! I wonder what other games, are simple to use on a larger and more powerful desktop.

I cant see Civilisation as being one of these. But it would be great if you can run from desktop and then quit back to Gem easily. This would be the equivalent of full-screen DirectX anyway! I have not tried out the patched Civ games, but I look forward to doing this once I get on top of my to-do list!!! :D


I will contact Popsel. He was on this forum couple years ago, but now is away (maybe too much Simbo writings distracted him :D ) .
Considering Civilisation: my adapt has what you want: running from Desktop and easy exit to Desktop. All it works even on 2MB TT if you are careful with RAM usage.
But expecting that games done for single-tasking TOS work in multitasking or in Window is not real. Only after serious changes in code. There are some older games rewritten for running in WIMP - like Fish. It is better playable than first version, for sure, but works slower too.

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby SofiST » Tue May 24, 2011 8:56 am

I mailed Popsel, but it may take some days - he is not the fastest responder.
Some warnings: it is possible that you need to make some changes on VME logic inside TT - there are some buffer ICs which made problems. But I don't remember exact details. Hddriver will not work with it. And not any other popular one as ICD, AHDI. You can write own driver or ask someone to fix driver for it ...
I still say that it is not recommended.

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby SofiST » Fri May 27, 2011 8:45 am

This is what Popsel replied: "I am afraid this will not work on TT. My version for VME bus is based on disabling
the VME bus functions and patching the board so that I get the needed signals.I have
no idea how much work it is on a TT.
So I will not offer this for TT. I plan to open my online shop in august. Then there
will be a detailed description for MEGA STE available. "

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby bid » Fri May 27, 2011 2:26 pm

SofiST wrote:This is what Popsel replied:


Well thanks anyway. I have an interest in learning about the VME, and I wish I could find even a starter project on it. I really want to look into building something for this interface, and I really think it can be done in a much simpler way than for example Mario Beecrofts Galaxy VME Card, or other devices for VME expansion made before. We now have all in one chipsets with USB, VGA, Ethernet, LAN, and other protocols (for flash memory etc etc) that would be so easy to slot into an expansion port such as VME. Was really mainly for me to play with and understand.

I just wish that there was an interface already that was already done so that I can learn and explore. Seems Mario is the only one who got anywhere!! I was betting that with some of the newer re-programmable hardware available it would be possible to 'mimic' existing cards such as Nova, Crazydots etc, and even swap between them for example. I am planning on having a play at learning to program a single chip microcontroller mainly for fun and learning, and perhaps build a simple interface so that I could safely poke around with the output from the VME for example. But without a basis to start I am flummoxed!!

Still the TT is very good anyway, but I am a little annoyed not to be able to access decent VGA resolutions, and internal IDE, as it would I like the machine in one solid lump. Had fancied sticking a breadboard in there to play about with some simple things for fun. Never mind.
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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby SofiST » Sat May 28, 2011 11:03 am

The problem with VME and IDE is that IDE address space ( $F00000-$F0003F) is disabled for VME (as is not RAM address space) . Therefore HW patch on MSTE, and for sure on TT is necessary. With VME and graphic the problem is price of cards, I guess :D

I think that VME is now pretty obsolete, and as we may see not really good for all expansions.
If you want to make some expansions on TT, I think that better is to do it without VME, or modding it, as Popsel did - by removing restrictions.
I can give all support for making IDE adapter on TT. But it will be not easy, and must be flexible. Sometimes just our original ideas appear as not best ones, and we need to 'mod' them :D

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby bid » Sat May 28, 2011 2:20 pm

SofiST wrote:The problem with VME and IDE is that IDE address space ( $F00000-$F0003F) is disabled for VME (as is not RAM address space) . Therefore HW patch on MSTE, and for sure on TT is necessary. With VME and graphic the problem is price of cards, I guess :D

I think that VME is now pretty obsolete, and as we may see not really good for all expansions.
If you want to make some expansions on TT, I think that better is to do it without VME, or modding it, as Popsel did - by removing restrictions.
I can give all support for making IDE adapter on TT. But it will be not easy, and must be flexible. Sometimes just our original ideas appear as not best ones, and we need to 'mod' them :D


Sure my friend. This is very new to me, and I have no idea what is and what is not possible!! I have been looking at this chip recently, the P8X32 http://propeller.wikispaces.com/Hardware which is interesting, as it only $7.99 each and has some very interesting capabilities. I have been playing with Audurino for a while and saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89M5rvolGGU which impressed me as I am trying myself to build a custom music device. I am new to understanding Atari, but I am wondering if there is scope in shifting chunks of data, .e.g. video memory, etc etc and using the easy to access outputs (VGA, MIDI, LAN, PS2 etc etc) on this. I am certainly going to do something fun with MIDI and these chips, but I am consistently astonished how much is actually possible and there are an array of fun options for the hobbiest!

Also I have no graphics card for my TT, and I think that the only way I will ever get one will be by physically building it!! lol :lol:
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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby Taritan » Sun May 29, 2011 1:12 pm

There is a tool to run a program (in this case CIV) in ST RAM and not in TT RAM. Than it will work.
soziale-opposition.de/atari/PR­GFLAGS.PRG

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby bid » Sun May 29, 2011 1:34 pm

Taritan wrote:There is a tool to run a program (in this case CIV) in ST RAM and not in TT RAM. Than it will work.
soziale-opposition.de/atari/PR­GFLAGS.PRG


I'll try this tool out as soon as possible!

Hey, I love your avatar / logo by the way!! Cool as F. Lets stand together! :D
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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby SofiST » Mon May 30, 2011 11:42 am

Taritan wrote:There is a tool to run a program (in this case CIV) in ST RAM and not in TT RAM. Than it will work.
soziale-opposition.de/atari/PR­GFLAGS.PRG


It may stay for some versions (hacks actually). What I have does not need it.

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Re: Civilization on TT

Postby Zogging Hell » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:14 pm

Civilisation ran on my TT without any problems (apart from the occasional rare crash) for years. It's installed on the hard disk, which might make a difference perhaps. Never had any problems with it. There's a very short list of games you might like to add at the bottom of my TT webpage http://www.zhell.co.uk/ttpage.html. As with most things Zogging Hell related it needs updating..
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