JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:07 pm

mlynn1974 wrote:Great demo! Well done. I love the Rubix cube solver.


I'm a fan of that too!

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:59 pm

Thanks again for all the feedback! I appreciate that! Now, don't forget to give it a thumb-up at Pouet as well, those makes me even happier! ;-)
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=81750
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby Kroll » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:35 pm

Hi,
I do not want to start a new thread, but I have a question, I know that I am probably alone in this, but ask for it.
Just on one of my falcons (stock falcon), this demo practically does not work. maybe one attemp of 100 when it came to an end. Practically, the picture stops at any random moment, sometimes at the beginning sometimes when music is already playing.
If the picture stops, music plays all the time. I have checked various media CF, SD card. Specially I change the media from other falcons with IDE ribbon cable and IDE2SD (or IDE2CF) adapter, unfortunately the effect is the same.
Of course I checked on other demos, this problem does not work properly, so I do not suspect that this is a hardware problem.
I have tested this on three other falcons without this effect.
The only thing that comes to my mind is the bad NVRAM. Can bad NVRAM cause such problems?
I have replaced NVRAM on other mainboards.
(My system TOS 4.04, I tested with original 4MB and others 14 MB)
Does anyone have any idea (just the same for the RGB and VGA versions too).

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:57 pm

This sounds exactly like what a friend of mine is experiencing on his Falcon and unfortunately it's likely a hardware problem. We eventually identified the cause of the freezes on his machine to be related to the Blitter. Most polygons in Joy are filled using the Blitter, so it's heavily used. I'm not aware of any other demo (or game) that uses the Blitter to the same extent as Joy, so that could explain why you're not experiencing this problem in any other software.

I don't know exactly what's causing the Blitter to fail, but here's a few possible reasons:
- Dried up or poor performing electrolytic capacitors on the main board (this could lead to a voltage drop when the Blitter is used heavily).
- Faulty Blitter.
- Cracked or bad solder joints (see below).

My friend's Falcon needs to be powered on for about 30-60 minutes to "heat-up", after that it runs Joy without any problems, but before that it'll crash all the time, at different points in the demo. I suspect the reason for this could also be due to one or more bad solder joints. You could try and see if you have the same phenomena.

If anyone has any other ideas I'm all ears!
Last edited by dhedberg on Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby Kroll » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:14 am

dhedberg wrote:
My friend's Falcon needs to be powered on for about 30-60 minutes to "heat-up", after that it runs Joy without any problems, but before that it'll crash all the time, at different points in the demo. I suspect the reason for this could also be due to one or more bad solder joints. You could try and see if you have the same phenomena.

If anyone has any other ideas I'm all ears!


Thank you Daniel, You're absolutely right, after about 30-60 minutes, my falcon behaves exactly the same, so after that time JOY is working very well every time. So you're right to suspect bad solder points.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby mikro » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:53 am

To me this sounds like an incredible coincidence. Isn't possible that clock patch is somehow involved?

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:46 am

hello, on my Falcon, and on the falcon of a friend, we met the same problem : the demo is freezing intempestively.

the first time i launched the demo, it ran from start to the end. I launch it again : freeze during a 3D figure display, the whole machine locked up.

On my friend's falcon, it failed on part 2, no matter what he did.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:02 am

So, if there's more than two machines suffering from this I think we can exclude the bad solder joint theory. Seems unlikely.
I guess it could be different revisions of the motherboard causing some machines to be more unstable when using the Blitter. Different revisions of the Combel perhaps?

At least we have a work-around. Let the engine warm up before pushing it! :wink:
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby Kroll » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:10 am

mikro wrote:To me this sounds like an incredible coincidence. Isn't possible that clock patch is somehow involved?


I do not have any modifications made on this motherboard. This Falcon is like directly from factory.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:12 am

Kroll wrote:
mikro wrote:To me this sounds like an incredible coincidence. Isn't possible that clock patch is somehow involved?

I do not have any modifications made on this motherboard. This Falcon is like directly from factory.

OK. Same with my friend's Falcon that have the same problem. It has no clock patch either.
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby stormy » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:07 pm

Your bad capacitor theory could be credible. I'll test on my recapped falcon and see how it performs.
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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:10 pm

stormy wrote:Your bad capacitor theory could be credible. I'll test on my recapped falcon and see how it performs.

Are you also experiencing random crashes throughout the demo?
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:26 pm

My Falcon is unmodified from factory as well, and is fully recapped (PSU and motherboard).
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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:37 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:My Falcon is unmodified from factory as well, and is fully recapped (PSU and motherboard).

Alright, so no clock patch. Seems like that could be it, at least that's one thing that all of the machines have in common so far.
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:49 am

If anyone else is having problems running JOY, please get in touch with me. Thanks.
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby stormy » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:06 pm

Runs fine on my machine, with clockpatch.
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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby Atari030 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:10 am

I'm running it on my CT2b under Magic, runs a treat. Very nice work.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby NGF » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:28 pm

A joy to see (and listen!) to this demo :D
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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby Kroll » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:00 pm

dhedberg wrote:If anyone else is having problems running JOY, please get in touch with me. Thanks.


For a few days on the main board, on which this demo does not work, I tests CT60e, unfortunately the same, it confirms so much that it is certainly not a problem with the power supply or capacitors. Unfortunately, even after 80 minutes, this demo does not work at random. Why it work so before replacing the power supply I do not know, maybe it was a random case that it came to an end.

This is just my suggestion and my idea, I tested this demo on three other mainboards, where the only change is a small patch installed from the website of R. Czuby. It's exactly about the soldering resistor, which is well shown in the picture below.

SDMA.jpg


On each such motherboard works perfectly.
This change on these three mainboard were made by my friend.
The only idea is to install such a patch also on this main board, I do not have another idea at the moment.
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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby mikro » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:53 am

Congratulations Daniel, you have officially developed the first demo which *requires* clock patch. ;)

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby shoggoth » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:40 am

Now let’s just see those nifty polyrouts open sourced...
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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:41 am

mikro wrote:Congratulations Daniel, you have officially developed the first demo which *requires* clock patch. ;)

Oh, thanks, I guess. ;-)

About the Blitter problem. My friend, whose Falcon had problems with JOY crashing when the machine was cold, but which ran just fine after being powered-on for some time, now runs JOY without any problems after he installed a picoPSU.

We tried quite a few things with his machine (which does NOT have a clock patch) with various results:
1. Replaced all electrolytic capacitors of the PSU. Did not help. JOY still crashed.
2. Replaced all electrolytic capacitors of the motherboard. Did not help. JOY still crashed.
3. Re-flowed a few crappy solder points on the motherboard. Did not help. JOY still crashed.
4. Pre-heated just the Combel before cold-booting the machine. Helped. JOY ran just fine.
5. Installed the CT60e with a regular ATX power supply. Did not help. JOY still crashed.
6. Replaced the ATX power supply with a picoPSU. Helped. Ever since, JOY runs just fine in 030 mode. WTF?
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby mikro » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:05 am

About that 6: I think it still doesn't rule out the need for a clock patch. Clock patch is, in essence, really a patch (read: hack). I.e. it boosts some signals and weakens others. So the new PSU can have just slightly weaker +12V line for instance and boom, the behaviour is totally different.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby dhedberg » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:36 pm

Well, I haven't investigated it in any depth as it's not my machine, but the Falcon030 motherboard is not known for having the best design and stability. Anything can happen on a motherboard designed and produced by Atari, right? ;-)
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: JOY - a new Falcon030 demo from New Beat

Postby Kroll » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:39 pm

Thank you ALL,
Yesterday I came back to standard configuration, remove CT60e, because on this mainboard (noy modification) I have some problems with other demos (only 030 demos).
This mainboard need more time about 90 minutes, but after this time demo "JOY" almost always plays OK.. That's all. :)


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