3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

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3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:40 am

Hi,
I just spent some hours watching demos for stock F030... it really bring many nice memories from 90s :)

There some really great 3D scenes/engine, e.g.:

- Hmmmm... by Escape
- Sonolumineszenz by Avena

are most impressive (correct me if I am wrong). I was wonder what demos have best 3D scenes on Amiga 1200 but without turbocard - stock A1200 with FastRAM?
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:46 pm

I would say that nowaday's Doug's Doom port is the most impressive 3D "demo" on Falcon. :)

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:32 pm

I agree ! :) most impresive!

Hope I will setup my 386 and measure fps vs badmood.

But I still would like to see what Amiga coders manage to pull out from almost basic Amiga configuration!

---

I would say that ST coders are far superior than Amiga 500 coders - they copy almost every amiga effect on less capable hardware!

Fast foward to 1992.: I would say that falcon is (arguably) superio than A1200 - just like Amiga 500/1000 was superior to ST.
But I would like to see what Amiga 1200 could do! :)
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby EvilFranky » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:40 am

Really not sure about all out 3D. But I believe 'Nexus 7' by Andromeda is supposed to be quite a popular 020 based AGA demo:-

http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=402

The problem with AGA stuff is it's written to perform over various CPU configs, 020-040...trying to find a demo that attempts to get the most out of a 14mhz 020 A1200 has been difficult in my experience.

Then you watch a video on YouTube and the uploader has used WinUAE with 'fast as possible' emulation so every 3D scene runs in 1VBL which is NOT a true representation of how it would perform on a real Amiga.

If you find something then I'd be interested in viewing it too :coffe:

But the Falcon vs A1200 is a no brainer in my opinion. Out of the box the Falcon is a better machine, it has some design quirks but generally it's a BIG step up over an STE.

Versus an A1200:-

Better more usable GFX modes.
MUCH MUCH MUCH better sound system.
Faster BUS
Faster CPU
Built in SCSI
HD Floppy
And that all important DSP, this really tips the balance IMO.

It would have been nice I admit if it was running with a full 32-bit BUS, and had a bit more going for it regarding 2D GFX (some sprites in hardware etc).

Just my 2 pence worth :angel:

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:03 pm

nexus 7 - wow!

if youtube video is recorded on original A1200 than it is quite impressive!

- "Shade cluster" as seen on 68030 50MHz DHS demo "dont break the oath"
- 3D models are quite big and smooth (I would say better than on any stock F030 demo)
- and balls look very good
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby EvilFranky » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:09 pm

Better than any stock Falcon demo? I doubt it.

You've even mentioned Hmmmm... Which has much more complex 3D scenes than in Nexus 7. Plus the Falcon is doing it in 16-bit colour.

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Cyprian » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:52 pm

EvilFranky wrote:It would have been nice I admit if it was running with a full 32-bit BUS

32bit is not always better than 16 bit :P
A good example is Amiga 1200. It has 32bit bus, but CPU has very slow access to it - every 8th clock, in case of Falcon it is 16bit bus with 4th clock CPU access. Due to Falcon's main clock - 16Mhz (vs 14Mhz in A1200) bus performance should be 12% better.
But there is something else - size of manipulated data vs memory size/access time. Lets try to read e.g. 10 Longwords/Words/Bytes from memory:
* A1200 32bit bus, 8 cycles per access:
- 10 Long words - 10 memory cycles - 80 CPU cycles;
- 10 Words - 10 memory cycles - 80 CPU cycles;
- 10 Bytes - 10 memory cycles - 80 CPU cycles;
* Falcon 16bit bus 4 cycles per access:
- 10 Long words - 20 memory cycles - 80 CPU cycles;
- 10 Words - 10 memory cycles - 40 CPU cycles;
- 10 Bytes - 10 memory cycles - 40 CPU cycles;

Now lets try to set one pixel on the screen in 8 bit plane mode:
- A1200 line organization - 1 memory access per plane x8 planes x8 cycles per access = 64 CPU cycles;
- Falcon interleave planar organization - 1 memory access per plane x8 planes x4 cycles per access = 32 CPU cycles;
In this case Falcon should be more than twice faster than A1200.

Of course there are only my theoretical reflections :)
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby EvilFranky » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:11 pm

Yes sorry, I should have stated a 32-bit BUS @ 16MHz...effectively doubling the Falcon bandwidth ;-)

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby nativ » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:48 pm

EvilFranky wrote:Better than any stock Falcon demo? I doubt it.

You've even mentioned Hmmmm... Which has much more complex 3D scenes than in Nexus 7. Plus the Falcon is doing it in 16-bit colour.

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Looks like a good STe demo 8)
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Frank B » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:05 pm

I timed the 1200 at 3 cycles per 32 bit access at 7mhz. Both machines are comparable in speed.

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Cyprian » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:28 pm

Frank B wrote:I timed the 1200 at 3 cycles per 32 bit access at 7mhz. Both machines are comparable in speed.

what kind of memory? chip-ram or fast-ram?
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Frank B » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:36 pm

Cyprian wrote:
Frank B wrote:I timed the 1200 at 3 cycles per 32 bit access at 7mhz. Both machines are comparable in speed.

what kind of memory? chip-ram or fast-ram?


I tested 32 bit aligned reads from chip RAM.

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Cyprian » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:32 pm

I read about that 8th (14Mhz) cycle access on Amiga coders forum e.g. http://eab.abime.net.
Regarding that 3 cycle 32 bit access at 7mhz, with that access A1200 should has better memory performance than Falcon:
- A1200 - 7.09MHz / 3cycle gives 32bit 2,365,000 memory slots per second. That is 9,5 MB/s
- F030 - 16Mhz / 4 cycle gives 16bit 4,000,000 memory slots per second. That is 8 MB/s
But real memory benchmarks (Nembench of and BusSpeedTest ) shows that A1200 has a bit worst memory figures than Falcon. Actually sometimes ago I posted some figures for those benchmarks here on AF, and as far as I remember you had posted some comments in that thread :)

Therefore that 3 cycle 32 bit access at 7mhz looks rather like fast-ram than chip-ram access.

Anyway would be cool to prepare and do the same test on both machines :)
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:14 pm

Can I ask why you talk about 7.05MHz at all??

Doesn't A1200 bus run on 14.14MHZ?
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby EvilFranky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:25 pm

No it runs at half the CPU clock rate, the whole custom chipset does as far as I am aware?

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:19 pm

EvilFranky wrote:No it runs at half the CPU clock rate, the whole custom chipset does as far as I am aware?


yes, you are right!

Amiga 500 bus runs on 3.58MHz link and Amiga 1200 on ~7MHz!


so Cyprian calcualtion is correct?

"Regarding that 3 cycle 32 bit access at 7mhz, with that access A1200 should has better memory performance than Falcon:
- A1200 - 7.09MHz / 3cycle gives 32bit 2,365,000 memory slots per second. That is 9,5 MB/s
- F030 - 16Mhz / 4 cycle gives 16bit 4,000,000 memory slots per second. That is 8 MB/s"

but is this for ChipRAM or FastRAM??
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Cyprian » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:02 am

calimero wrote:"Regarding that 3 cycle 32 bit access at 7mhz, with that access A1200 should has better memory performance than Falcon:
- A1200 - 7.09MHz / 3cycle gives 32bit 2,365,000 memory slots per second. That is 9,5 MB/s
but is this for ChipRAM or FastRAM??


this calculation is pure theoretical and done based on Frank's comments

Frank B wrote:I timed the 1200 at 3 cycles per 32 bit access at 7mhz. Both machines are comparable in speed.

Frank B wrote:I tested 32 bit aligned reads from chip RAM.



Below you can find result from real A1200:

Code: Select all

  BusSpeedTest 0.19 (mlelstv)   Buffer:     262144 Bytes, Alignment: 32768
  ========================================================================
  memtype   addr       op         cycle     calib         bandwidth
  chip      $000B0000  readw    1052.4 ns   normal       1.9 * 10^6 byte/s
  chip      $000B0000  readl    1051.8 ns   normal       3.8 * 10^6 byte/s
  chip      $000B0000  readm    1052.2 ns   normal       3.8 * 10^6 byte/


We can see that in case if "readw" - 16bit data at once (Word) we can get 1.9MB/s
in case of "readl" - 32bit data at once (Long Word) we can get 3.8MB/s

Both figures show us that from CPU point of view, Chip-Ram bus can be addressed every 8th CPU clock (14Mhz) - it is equal 1.9MHz.

BusSpeedTest shows that access to Fast-ram is much better.

Can anybody do that BusSpeedTest 0.19 test on unexpanded A1200?
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby jury » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:04 pm

God, damn it :p If you still need want wars in a manner Amiga vs Atari go to create a thread dedicated to it or go somewhere else :p ( damn neverending story %-) )
This thread is not for it and lets go back to the main purpose of this thread :)
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby jury » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:06 pm

double post, sorry

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby Cyprian » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:45 pm

Jury my friend, cool to see you also here
jury wrote:f you still need want wars in a manner Amiga vs Atari

what about the topic "3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200"? Whether it's war or not? :P
From my point of view there is nothing wrong in comparing these two competitors.
But yes, I agree with you that, the main topic was dragged a little bit by me.
I'll create another dedicated topic, and I'll ask moderators to do little clean up here.

ok I've created dedicated topic: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25185
Moderators, may I ask you to move posts (starting from my post p232984) about bus bandwidth from here to that new topic?
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:56 pm

^
no need to open another topic! this RAM speed talk is part of understanding differences in 3D capabilities of these two machine.

I would like to ask how much DSP can contribute to 3D?
- I know that Mikro/Mystic Bytes made 3D engine on DSP where textures are also stored and calculated on DSP.
- does anybody elso done this?
- How much data (KB) you can retrieve from DSP per VLB (or more prices)?
- and how engine works at all? What task are handled by DSP? :)

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:00 pm

I open a thread at eab amiga forum: http://eab.abime.net/amiga-scene/69697- ... 200-a.html

some of really good Amiga 1200 3D demos (stock + FastRAM):

Real / Complex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD-k8Oxkalc
very impressive textured mapped scene at end! Stock A1200 with FastRAM.

> ...somehow similar to "Moai" by Mystic Bytes and Satantronic:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCtGDvYnxKQ

Vision - Oxygene (1995)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFO7bWcCRCA
how they made scene at 3:40 ???

Control - Oxygene (1995)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5LfTBtGbE
very impressive 3D! super smooth - is this recorded from original A1200 ?
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby EvilFranky » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:43 pm

For the record I don't consider an A1200 with FASTRAM stock :)

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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby calimero » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:50 pm

EvilFranky wrote:For the record I don't consider an A1200 with FASTRAM stock :)

nether do I consider A1200 with FASTRAM stock but almost all demos require at least fastram and beside, fastram was not expensive to add - it will just cover cost difference between F030 and A1200 :) and with FastRAM Amiga architecture will have meaning! (on Falcon, you need a entire turbo card - CT2 or AB40 - to got a fastram)
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Re: 3D - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Postby dml » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:56 pm

calimero wrote:no need to open another topic! this RAM speed talk is part of understanding differences in 3D capabilities of these two machine.

I would like to ask how much DSP can contribute to 3D?


A lot! But it is also a lot of effort to do.

calimero wrote:- I know that Mikro/Mystic Bytes made 3D engine on DSP where textures are also stored and calculated on DSP.
- does anybody elso done this?


Yes, it's in BM now also :-) not exactly the same coding technique because constraints are different, but same idea/approach. My own version is a few %age points slower because of lighting translation which also needs done for drawing in that game. Max speed is achieved only without the lighting term (so far - one or other of us might fix this given time but currently that is the limit).

calimero wrote:- How much data (KB) you can retrieve from DSP per VLB (or more prices)?


Mikro has probably measured this. I've been working mainly in relative terms so I didn't check bandwidth and write down numbers. Pretty fast though - approaching (but not quite) the same as copying from STRam.

calimero wrote:- and how engine works at all? What task are handled by DSP? :)


You can do everything on the DSP, except direct access to large datasets (DSP has 96kbyte - if it fits in 96kbyte then you need CPU only for copying/plotting dots on the screen)

How does it work? That depends on how much you do on the DSP. It's a standalone RISC processor so you're limited mainly by code space, coding time and the bottleneck to the display memory (and any data you need to upload to it which doesn't fit for that frame). The bottleneck and space problems need very careful management.

I have at least 3 different systems on DSP already (most complex being BMEngine) and they all work very differently.


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