B.I.G. Demo

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Steven Seagal
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B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:01 pm

In emulators, some disk images crash on Flash Gordon, and all crash on Action-Biker #1.
I suspect that those images are bad?

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Brume » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:28 pm

The one on Demozoo seems to work fine:
http://demozoo.org/productions/76594/

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:34 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:In emulators, some disk images crash on Flash Gordon, and all crash on Action-Biker #1.
I suspect that those images are bad?

What image are you using ? I use BIG_DEMO.MSA , md5sum = f5056adb88337b34556b5f01da43ab29 , I think that's the one you see in pouet.net
No crash in these 2 musics under Hatari with this MSA version.
If that's the version you're using, this could be due to a bug in the FDC emulation of Steem (see the readme when the demo starts "If it crashed, there are errors on disk!" :) )

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:17 pm

Tsk tsk, if you enjoyed YM sound, you would play the song a bit longer and sure enough it crashes.
I found a version that works, I will upload it on my site after testing some other tunes, hopefully tomorrow.

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:22 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:Tsk tsk, if you enjoyed YM sound, you would play the song a bit longer and sure enough it crashes.
I found a version that works, I will upload it on my site after testing some other tunes, hopefully tomorrow.

Could you tell how many seconds it takes before crashing ?
I could dump my original ST disk if needed, I listened to all those tunes during hours/days 25 years ago, so I'm pretty sure it didn't crash :)

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:30 pm

npomarede wrote:
Steven Seagal wrote:Tsk tsk, if you enjoyed YM sound, you would play the song a bit longer and sure enough it crashes.
I found a version that works, I will upload it on my site after testing some other tunes, hopefully tomorrow.

Could you tell how many seconds it takes before crashing ?
I could dump my original ST disk if needed, I listened to all those tunes during hours/days 25 years ago, so I'm pretty sure it didn't crash :)


I didn't time but I would say about 3m, before the loop.

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:47 pm

So, I confirm "action biker #1" crashes at 1'43 with BIG_DEMO.MSA from pouet / nofragment
I dumped my old ST disk, and when comparing both versions, there're some differences :

http://www.pouet.net : BIG_DEMO.ST md5=e70f00f148aa97e2064e4820c12bc302
track 0, sector 0, offset 8 : serial fb 8e ab + crc at offset 510
track 20, sector 5, offset 0 : 18 57 29 8b 36 f2 10 fd 1d 58 01 b9 10 e3 e3
track 21, sector 5, offset 0 : 18 7d 16 8a 2a cf 05 e1 06 51 00 8a 18 e5 e5
track 44, sector 1, offset 0 : 1a 33 04 9f 0b 7a 01 f5 0f f5 02 84 1e 5f 5f
track 47, sector 4, offset 0 : 20 7b 3a a4 32 c9 3f ce 49 68 3c bf 27 d3 d3

-> action biker #1 crashes at 1'43

my dump : BIG_DEMO.ST md5=11f9e2ddfde3271a26b2df923e869b47
track 0, sector 0, byte 8 : serial c9 9a cf + crc at offset 510
track 20, sector 5, offset 0 : 0c 15 18 57 29 8b 36 f2 10 fd 1d 58 01 b9 10
track 21, sector 5, offset 0 : 1a 1a 18 7d 16 8a 2a cf 05 e1 06 51 00 8a 18
track 44, sector 1, offset 0 : 09 1b 1a 33 04 9f 0b 7a 01 f5 0f f5 02 84 1e
track 47, sector 4, offset 0 : 33 24 20 7b 3a a4 32 c9 3f ce 49 68 3c bf 27

So, it seems there were different versions of the demo released by TEX ? (see the change in serial number)
But unfortunately, my version crashes too in action biker #1, It seems it's not the version I used 20 years ago :(

Maybe someone here knows the history of this demo and if several versions were released (as this happened also for the L.C.D. by Tex)

Nicolas

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:48 pm

Brume wrote:The one on Demozoo seems to work fine:
http://demozoo.org/productions/76594/

It's the same as the one linked on pouet.net, so it's bad too :(

[EDIT 00:57] The version in pacidemo is also crashing :(
The md5sum for buggy BIGDEMO.st there is 8618849581534f32a3dd4fe89f52473d (after converting the MSA file ST)

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby lotek_style » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:45 am

Just tried various images from different sources but without luck... all buggy... (just for the record the demozoo and pouet images are the same as they come from my archives).

Steven: can you post the 100% image?
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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Marcer » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:58 am

Lotek did you Try The one from my ftp?


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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:15 am

Just to confirm : I also tried the disk on my 520 STF, and it crashes, so this is not an emulation issue

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby lotek_style » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:15 am

Marcer... ah there is one too :) didnt remember that one... have to wait until im back home this evening.
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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:28 pm

Marcer wrote:Lotek did you Try The one from my ftp?

Hello
if you mean the one in "Atari DemoDVD/Exceptions, The (Tex)/1988/", then it's the same version referenced in pouet and demozoo, with boot sector serial = fb 8e ab and it crashes at the same point.

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:59 pm

On http://www.planetemu.net/roms/atari-st-demos?page=B there're several versions :
    Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions)
    Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions)[a2]
    Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions)[a3]
    Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions)[a4]
    Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions)[a]
    Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions)[o]

They all crash, except "Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions)" ; for this one, the difference is that the boot screen has a kind of blue color, different from the usual grey of all the others versions.
I will do a byte comparison of the disks later, to see if there would be any hint of where this version comes from (a fixed one by TEX ?)

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby lotek_style » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:48 pm

I fixed the link: http://demozoo.org/productions/76594/

It really looks like it's a fixed version.
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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:16 pm

Yes that looks like the one I just uploaded on my site as promised.
I had it playing many tunes in the background and I believe this one is 100%, hence fixed (other colours).

http://ataristeven.t15.org/Steem_demos3.htm#BIG_Demo

Image

And in case it went down again, here it is:
B.I.G. Demo.zip
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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:39 pm

Hello
so just for the record, I made a comparison of my own floppy of the BIG demo (that crashes in action biker #1) with the version with a blue loading screen "Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions).st"

grey "bad version" : BIG_DEMO.ST md5sum=11f9e2ddfde3271a26b2df923e869b47
track 0, sector 1, byte 8 : serial c9 9a cf + crc bytes 510/511
1850 0c 48 1b 31 02 ff 0d f4 05 b7 0a 66 00 a0 19 ff
2F940 ae
2F981 62

blue "correct version" : Big Demo, The (1987)(Exceptions).st md5sum=1f765d5d8ec014678f7de3eacb39777a
track 0, sector 0, byte 8 : serial 9d 69 63 + crc bytes 510/511
1850 09 58 1c 21 04 cf 0d f4 01 c7 09 76 02 90 18 ef
2F940 8e
2F981 5e

So, there're only 4 main differences, on a very short number of bytes. Data are "crypted" on disk, so it's quite unlikey this blue version doesn't come from TEX themselves.

First, boot sector's serial number is changed from "c9 9a cf" to "9d 69 63"

Then, on offset $1850 on the disk, 16 bytes are changed, they're in fact the 8 first colors for the loader screen

Code: Select all

bad :  05 55 07 77 06 66 00 00 04 44 03 33 02 22 01 11  (grey colors)
good : 00 45 00 67 00 56 00 00 00 34 00 23 00 12 00 01  (blue colors)

Lastly, 2 bytes are changed at offset 2F940 and 2F981 on disk ; when loaded in memory, those bytes become :

Code: Select all

bad :
034940: a7 e7 39 e3 39 8e 38 8e e7 39 e3 3c 8e 3b 8e 3c   ..9.9.8..9.<.;.<
034980: 8e 7f 8e 44 43 8e 44 43 8e 41 8e 3e 8e 3b 87 e3   ...DC.DC.A.>.;..

good :
034940: 87 e7 39 e3 39 8e 38 8e e7 39 e3 3c 8e 3b 8e 3c   ..9.9.8..9.<.;.<
034980: 8e 43 8e 44 43 8e 44 43 8e 41 8e 3e 8e 3b 87 e3   .C.DC.DC.A.>.;..


The memory area between $34300 and $34F30 is the one for "action biker" and all its subsongs.

In conclusion, this blue version is really a bug fix version of the most widely spread "grey" version, with only "Action Biker" being modified.

A piece of demo history can now be restored :)

Nicolas

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:18 pm

If there are only two words to fix I'll make a Steem patch, like there's already for bad version of "Cuddly Demo".

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby npomarede » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:34 pm

Is this necessary to patch a version that was released buggy and fixed later ? For "archiving" reason, it could be interesting to keep the crashing behaviour.
Maybe you could have a list of known faulty demos included in Steem and just display a warning to the user instead, telling him a fixed version exist ?

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:39 pm

npomarede wrote:Is this necessary to patch a version that was released buggy and fixed later ?


Steem patches are of course totally optional.

I recently "improved" P.S.G. emulation in Steem. The idea is to use ljbk's "fixed volumes" table in all cases, not just for samples like in current version (v3.6.4).
It sounds much louder but even sometimes distorted.
A nice example is the BIG demo opening tune 'Ace 2'. The lead synth sounds distorted in Hatari and this dev version of Steem, and not distorted in SainT and current version of Steem.
What is correct?

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Stefan jL » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:45 pm

I have never used Hatari so i don't know how distorted it sounds... but i do know the ST sound is very distorted, here is an recording i made from my ST playing the Ace 2 music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jvijeIlPw
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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby FedePede04 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:55 pm

Stefan jL wrote:I have never used Hatari so i don't know how distorted it sounds... but i do know the ST sound is very distorted, here is an recording i made from my ST playing the Ace 2 music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jvijeIlPw


question.
is the STE more distorted than the STFM.
i think that my STE is very distorted, compared to my stfm was when i used the audio out through the Monitor plug.
but i don't have my STFM anymore so i can't compared them
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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Stefan jL » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:37 pm

The STE is sligtly less distorted.. at least if you don't use the stereo connectors.
here is a STE recording of Ace 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtAeqEbfKI4
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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:43 pm

Stefan jL wrote:I have never used Hatari so i don't know how distorted it sounds... but i do know the ST sound is very distorted, here is an recording i made from my ST playing the Ace 2 music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jvijeIlPw


Thx a lot, this is exactly what I needed.
The sound is very distorted indeed.
I find 'Ace 2' better with less distortion, but correct emulation is more distortion.

Edit: and STE is halfway. Argh! We need another table.

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Re: B.I.G. Demo

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:09 pm

It's also visible on those videos that the aspect ratio is distorted as well (as Leonard noted).
The circles aren't quite perfect, they're higher than wide.
What a junk computer! :)
I'm afraid that, after drive sound, it's another Saint feature that's going to be imitated in Steem (in the new D3D fullscreen mode). :roll:


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