Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

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Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby basthian » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:46 pm

I'm new here and wonder if anyone has used Avalon with later Akai samplers than the ones listed in the program? I have had Avalon for some time but only just started using it. I have the original disk but it doesn't work so I downloaded version 2.1 and it seems to work fine. But every attempt to connect the software with my Akai s3000i has failed. Since the s3000i isn't listed in the program when youre defining your external equipment I have just tried choosing different Akai samplers (s900, s1000) but when I try to transfer a sample to the s3000i Avalon crashes. Any thoughts? Is it possible to get it to work? Can I maybe add som type of s3000i driver to avalon? It's a really good program to work with but it's a shame that my sampler isn't supported.

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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby nativ » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:42 am

Hi,

I have Avalon and and Akai S3000XL, sadly I haven't connected them together just yet, but will let you know how things progress when I do.

There is also ZeroX that you might try, this even supports reading Akai disks.

Regards,

Ashley
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby AtariSince1989 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:13 am

First of all, apologies for my ignorance in the subject :oops: (never used samplers).

I have two questions; Are those sampler machines expensive? Why do you not use a laptop instead of it? With a laptop and a midi interface you could have infinite samplers at a cheap price.

Thanks a lot, in advance, for your replies.
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby basthian » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:32 pm

I like hardware :) and they're quite cheap, I payed about 100$ for mine. Also my pc isn't good enough to use modern sampling software and my midi interface is my atari.

ZeroX looks promising. Have you tried it with your 3000XL? Is compatible with samples from Avalon? If you easily can transfer samples from Avalon to ZeroX the problem would be solved!

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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby nativ » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:31 pm

The samplers are good for 'live setting'.

I was into tracking originally so a sampler seemed like the best idea, had mine a few years though. Prices are low now as people use PCee based stuff.


I think I read that the S2000 works well so y not the 3000! tranfer from Avalon, it ought to be able to though I'd have to check the manual.

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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby basthian » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:12 pm

Do you know where I can get ZeroX? I got a copy from atarimusic.net but it doesn't seem to work. It only loades for a while and then goes back to the desktop.

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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby nativ » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:24 am

I'll try and upload mine.


The demoversion will load just won't save or something!


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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby AtariSince1989 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:12 am

Thanks for the replies. I understand now a bit more.

nativ wrote:I was into tracking originally so a sampler seemed like the best idea

Do you mean you can trigger samplers stored in a sampler hardware from a tracker software? I'm abit confused now :roll:
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby basthian » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:19 am

nativ wrote:I'll try and upload mine.


That would be great. Thanks.

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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby nativ » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:21 pm

AtariSince1989 wrote:Thanks for the replies. I understand now a bit more.

nativ wrote:I was into tracking originally so a sampler seemed like the best idea

Do you mean you can trigger samplers stored in a sampler hardware from a tracker software? I'm abit confused now :roll:


Well you can trigger the samples in the ST via MIDI and you can control the external sampler via MIDI!

Or you can control the YM chip via MIDI with MidiMoo of Electronic Cow.

A tracker is the two things combined in one no need for external hardware. You have to get used to the interface though. It's a bit like having a sampled based step sequencer.

The Ym trackers 'chippers' use a similar interface to the Sample based trackers. And ACE tracker on the Falcon uses internal synthesis and samples.

Clear as mud. :)

Also in Cubase you have a tracker like interface. (I forget what the menu is called!)


Hope that helps
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby AtariSince1989 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 pm

nativ wrote:Hope that helps

Indeed! :cheers: Thanks a lot for the good explanation.
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby AtariSince1989 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:06 pm

nativ wrote:Or you can control the YM chip via MIDI with MidiMoo of Electronic Cow.


If understand well, it means that I could use a Controller Keyboard connected through MIDI to the ST and use the YM sounds?

Thanks.
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby nativ » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:07 pm

http://ds.dial.pipex.com/electronic_cow/cownet.shtml


http://ds.dial.pipex.com/electronic_cow/scs.htm

In issue 22 of Basique, Sound Chip Synth was reviewed... "Remarkably, you can play Sound Chip Synth monophonically from an external MIDI keyboard, complete with real-time controllers... the final results, when exported as an AVR file, are professional CD quality."


:)
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby AtariSince1989 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:37 am

Thanks a lot nativ for the info :cheers:

EDITED: Oh :( The link to the Basique's 22 issue asks for a password to access. Anyway, you gave me the information already :D
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby FonZ » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:00 am

The s3000 range uses a different set of rules to communicate, so the listed drivers with avalon will never work with it, :cry: , which got me thinking: why not try and write a new driver, since the driver will probably be nothing more then a set of rules to do the sysEx?

I just started and I never ever coded a thing for Atari in my life, but I have some excellent resources, I have the exchange commands from the s1000 and the s3000xl and well, the s1000 works like a charm with avalon, so basicaly it should come down to disecting the s1000 driver and taking it from there.

I'm not promosing anything, but I'll defenitely try till I die! Don't expect anything tooo soon, just don't give up hope!
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby Atari74user » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:36 am

Avalon has always frustrated me with this, which is why I don't use it for Sample Dumps, a new driver could be cool!

For my two peneth Steinberg got it wrong, there should be no differentiation between any of the S series of Akai samplers post S1000. The reason for this, when the S1000 was introduced the Sample Dump Standard (SDS) was also introduced, and life was made easier to MIDI dump samples to and from different manufactered samplers. Prior to this manufacturers did not conform, for example the Akai S900 and S950 used the Prophet 2000 standard for dumping samples via MIDI. Why Steinberg wrote a driver specific to the S1000 and not use the SDS format was limiting. Personally I would use Zero X (obviously if you're going the legitimate route you'll need the dongle), Replay 16, or Squash It! from Electronic Cow, even better considering it's Abandonware (links already in this post). All of these utilise the SDS format and make dumping samples too and from your sampler and Atari easy.
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby FonZ » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:15 pm

Darned, you're even more then right come to think of it and you know what the solution to the problem is (it just hit me after your post)? Setting the s3000 exclusive to 'standard' and you can use the s1000 driver without any problems at all.

So my guess is, that will work for any S-series Akai post s-1000.

wow, does this save me from going to a lot of trouble. Thanks man!
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby Atari74user » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:37 pm

FonZ wrote:wow, does this save me from going to a lot of trouble

I would say no unfortunately, there really is no need to differentiate between S1000, S1100 and so on post S1000 for the S Series samplers, but Steinberg decided to go down this route. However, there is a driver called MMA, which as I understand is the SDS format that should universally work. I believe it is called MMA as SDS had just been decided upon by the MMA (MIDI Manufacturers Association), when in fact it is an SDS driver. However this has always timed out on me, yet when I switch to Squash It!, Replay 16 or Zero X, they all work seemlessly with dumping samples from Atari to sampler, Akai S2000 in my case. Avalon is just a little quirky in this respect. I would say there could be a need to improve on the MMA driver to get it to work as it should, but this is just my experience, Avalon has never worked well with sample dumps for me and my gear. This could be the project, an SDS driver for Avalon that does actually work? It might be worth someone else giving sample dumping a go with the MMA driver and their sampler, S3000 as in this topic, would be interesting if the same results are incurred?
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby FonZ » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:54 pm

Well, I didn't have a problem with avalon besides the fact that it couldn't read my s3000xl samples. But now it can by just changing a setting in the s3000xl and using the s1000 driver. (so yes, I tested it and it works like a charm!)

See, I don't want to edit programs or whatever on the atari, I just wanted to be able to receive and send samples from the akai, so for me, this works, especially since I can use the SMPs' routing options.

Now if you say that it might not work for other S-series samplers, hee, I wouldn't know to be honest. Maybe it's still worth a shot trying to write a universal sds driver.
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby Atari74user » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:06 pm

Well, at least I made someone happy :cheers:. I am glad my theory worked, just wish I could make myself happy with my S2000, looks like this is where the S3000 has an extra setting the S2000 does not. However the MMA driver should work for me and my S2000, it just doesn't play ball. Oh well, I'm happy with Replay 16, I find it so easy for sample dumps. Once in my Atari I tend to use Avalon, Zero X and Squash It! for editing, so from my personal perspective I can work around it.
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby FonZ » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:40 pm

I don't know if there are any OS updates for the S2000 in which they fixed that, because it seems their own s1000 standard is/was widely used.

I have an OS update (v4.4) for the S1000 which lets it read s3000 samples, so you would expect them to do something like that for the s2000 as well..

Ah well, good luck with it and thanks for reminding me of that sds!
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby Atari74user » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:45 pm

I know I have updated the OS when I first got the S2000 many moons ago. I'll have to check if there is any further updates, I have never checked so is worth while doing. To be honest I would agree with you, the S2000 should be pretty similar to the S3000. They were basically the same machines if my memory serves me correctly, but the S2000 was more stripped down in its basic form, allowing you to add the digital in/out boards, effects and filter boards at a later date which I so did. The S3000 does have a far better display, but I would have thought the OS's of both machines would offer similar functionality. I'll have to take a look. I know the S2000 can read S1000, S900/950 samples, but as I understand it does it automatically when loading from disk or SCSI, not sure about MIDI. Avalon does seem to crash a lot when attempting to do any sort of MIDI or Sysex transfer, not the best way to handle any errors. Thanks for the tips!
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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby Beej » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:18 am

Some other samplers and romplers use SDS.
I.E. The Peavey DPM series. DPM3, 4, SP, SX.

So if you're not having luck with the Akai or MMA driver, try some of the other SDS based systems.

The reason there are probably several different Akai profiles:
Not about the sample dump part...but other things sent to the sampler like loop points, trims, etc. Since SDS doesn't necissarily support every thing a sampler might be capable of doing...Avalon might do a quick instrumet specific sysex dump that sets up things like loops points in the sampler patches.

Back when I was using romplers like the DPM series...I came across a program called Sample C by Richard Evans that I used as a sample librarian. This is essentially just a nice front end for doing SDS midi dumps and recieves and saving/loading them from disk.

It was nice that I could easily build complex batch uploads.

I'm having a hard time locating SampleC on the web...will get back if/when I find it.

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Re: Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby bid » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:52 pm

Have you tried AkaiSeX http://akai.brothelowner.com/jules/Disk/AkaiSeX/Atari/readme.html

This software should work for all s-series Akai

There is also theoretically a way to send via SCSI if the Atari is equipped, but I am unsure if software has been written for this.

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Steinberg Avalon with Akai s3000i sampler

Postby Mal7921 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:46 am

Most programs that are "Akai aware" have the ability to transfere over SCSI, assuming an interface is available. Zero-X can do this and I'm pretty sure Avalon can as well, but the advantage of Zero-X is that it can work on a falcon, which does have SCSI (Avalon will not work on a falcon or a TT so you will need an external SCSI interface to transfer from supported Akai samplers on the ST)


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