Test your listening skills (some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST)

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Test your listening skills (some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST)

Postby farvardin » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:59 am

how does an emulator such as Hatari compete with the real YM2149F chip? I know that on the C64, because the SID chip is using some analogic filters, it's quite difficult to emulate it at 100%, even if the emulator are quite good.

Is it the same with the YM2149F chip? I think it's only using digital effects but I'm not sure...

On some SID tunes it's obvious the real thing on C64 is better when you hear to both. On atari St I can't really feel the difference.

I'm also interested in the Mist hardware. How is the sound on it? Is it better or worse than an emulator? Can the fpga of the mist be 100% accurate to the YM2149F specifications?

Btw, just in case, the AY-3-8910 chip is similar to the YM2149F (in fact the YM2149F is a licenced clone of the AY chip, with some minor additions), so could we use a AY-3-8910 on a real ST or would it be dangerous?
Last edited by farvardin on Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby !cube » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:08 pm

The emulators are pretty close but not quite. Especially the output from a real STe gets highly distorted and starts ducking with certain timer effects whereas the emulations do not suffer from this. I can't really comment on the STe's LMC1992 in emulators because I don't use it, I'd imagine the emulation on that is not 100% either.
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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby farvardin » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:53 pm

ok, it's interesting to learn this. In a way this distortion is a counter effect so it's less a problem if it doesn't occur in the emulators.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby !cube » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:05 pm

Sure but if you're composing music for the real thing then this needs to be taken into consideration. I have had to change the sound design multiple times on my tunes since the emulator doesn't suffer from this "defect", only to realize it while replaying the song on the real machine. The volume levels are pretty close to the real chip in emulators but when it comes to the timer effects, some things might change a bit so one can't simply compose on an emulator and trust that it will sound the same on the real machine. That's why I tend to compose stuff using an emu for convenience but from time to time, I'll check the tune out on the machine.

Further more, the amp, in the Atari STe at least, suffers from noise and gets both low and high frequency interference from the electrics in the board so one usually needs to do some fixing work on the final output unless you enjoy that sort of thing. Well, at least I don't :) I haven't really played around with Hatari so I can't say whether it has a proper emulation of the low pass filter that is in the audio stage so I can't comment on whether it does the job or not. At least Steem doesn't emulate it properly.
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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby yerzmyey » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:39 pm

MIST has virtually no YM sound (some ugly noises) and they say digi music also doesn't work.




As for the Atari's distortion, You can get 520ST (possibly not the 520STF, although it also should work, but 520ST with modulator or simply 520ST+ ). Their distortion is negligible.

To not be unfounded, this was (I believe) recorded from 520STF
https://soundcloud.com/yerzmyey/yerzmyey-wake-up

and this from 520ST (modulator version) -
http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/chiptunes/07_ ... Sphere.mp3

In both cases You'd must have a proper DIN cable for recordings.
http://ym-digital.i-demo.pl/ ATARI 520ST music-band
http://ay-riders.speccy.cz/ ZX Spectrum music-band
http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/ ZX/A500/A1200/ST/XL music
https://soundcloud.com/yerzmyey ZX/A500/A1200/ST/STE/F030 music
http://z80.i-demo.pl/ MP3 archive of Z80 chip music

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby farvardin » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:41 pm

MIST has virtually no YM sound (some ugly noises)


ah, it's disappointing :(

maybe later...

Btw, how is the zx spectrum sound emulation on the mist? Is it close to a real one? How does it compare to for example Speccy 2010?

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby yerzmyey » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:38 pm

farvardin wrote:Btw, how is the zx spectrum sound emulation on the mist? Is it close to a real one? How does it compare to for example Speccy 2010?


Oh, I have no idea, actually. I didn't know there was such a core. :)
http://ym-digital.i-demo.pl/ ATARI 520ST music-band
http://ay-riders.speccy.cz/ ZX Spectrum music-band
http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/ ZX/A500/A1200/ST/XL music
https://soundcloud.com/yerzmyey ZX/A500/A1200/ST/STE/F030 music
http://z80.i-demo.pl/ MP3 archive of Z80 chip music

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby Hippy Dave » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:22 pm

farvardin wrote:how does an emulator such as Hatari compete with the real YM2149F chip? I know that on the C64, because the SID chip is using some analogic filters, it's quite difficult to emulate it at 100%, even if the emulator are quite good.

Hatari emulates the digital and analog aspects of the YM2149 and LMC1992 and all associated circuitry and filters. The LMC1992 is emulated right down to clipping distortion. Note that the YM2149 has a 125KHz top frequency on the Atari, so the Speccy may sound different if it uses a different clock.
farvardin wrote:Btw, just in case, the AY-3-8910 chip is similar to the YM2149F (in fact the YM2149F is a licenced clone of the AY chip, with some minor additions), so could we use a AY-3-8910 on a real ST or would it be dangerous?

There are enough differences between the chips that you should not replace a YM2149F with a AY-3-8910 in an Atari. I have not checked if the chips are safe drop in replacements, but the YM2149 has more functionality.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby !cube » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:04 pm

Hippy Dave wrote:Hatari emulates the digital and analog aspects of the YM2149 and LMC1992 and all associated circuitry and filters. The LMC1992 is emulated right down to clipping distortion. Note that the YM2149 has a 125KHz top frequency on the Atari, so the Speccy may sound different if it uses a different clock.


Have to test some sounds on Hatari to see if it distorts and ducks similarily to a real STe with some particular sync buzzer timer effects, if it does then I'll probably have to switch to using Hatari instead of STeem :)
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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby Hippy Dave » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:24 am

!cube wrote:
Hippy Dave wrote:Hatari emulates the digital and analog aspects of the YM2149 and LMC1992 and all associated circuitry and filters. The LMC1992 is emulated right down to clipping distortion. Note that the YM2149 has a 125KHz top frequency on the Atari, so the Speccy may sound different if it uses a different clock.


Have to test some sounds on Hatari to see if it distorts and ducks similarily to a real STe with some particular sync buzzer timer effects, if it does then I'll probably have to switch to using Hatari instead of STeem :)

I'm interested in the sound differences you find between Hatari and real hardware. I may be able to make some changes to Hatari.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby Stefan jL » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:18 am

Hippy Dave wrote:There are enough differences between the chips that you should not replace a YM2149F with a AY-3-8910 in an Atari. I have not checked if the chips are safe drop in replacements, but the YM2149 has more functionality.


I have put an AY8910 in my ST and it worked. Although i never tested much before i switched back to YM2149, you get different filtering of the sound with AY8910... so you need to change the lowpasss filter to get more sharp sound like the YM2149.
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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby !cube » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:43 pm

Hippy Dave wrote:I'm interested in the sound differences you find between Hatari and real hardware. I may be able to make some changes to Hatari.


Will get back to you on that once I get all my stuff set up again, in the middle of changing appartments right now.
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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby dma » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:16 pm

From my experience, Hatari is indeed very close to real STe sound.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby farvardin » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:24 pm

yerzmyey wrote:MIST has virtually no YM sound (some ugly noises) and they say digi music also doesn't work.


From a few videos I saw on youtube, the sounds is rather ok..., for example http://youtu.be/GiFmDl2p9fY?t=10m50s (later the guy says the sounds is awful in comparison to the amiga version, but probably he prefers digital sampled musics..., because on the video the sounds is similar as what I get from hatari). Maybe you tried an older version of the MiST?

btw I forgot Jim Power had so good musics... but when I see who is the composer, I understand better: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_H%C3%BClsbeck

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby yerzmyey » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:34 pm

Hmm. Maybe not exactly old MIST but maybe some old core/firmware. But it was a month ago.
What can I say - if it was my money, I wouldn't risk it.
I can pay only for 100% ready/finished product. For me releasing it before this stage, is kinda cheating. On customers.
In this case You could rather get Speccy2010. You will have 50hz AY only but at least with 6 channels (2 chips). Playing 99,9% like original American or Japanese version (switchable).
http://ym-digital.i-demo.pl/ ATARI 520ST music-band
http://ay-riders.speccy.cz/ ZX Spectrum music-band
http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/ ZX/A500/A1200/ST/XL music
https://soundcloud.com/yerzmyey ZX/A500/A1200/ST/STE/F030 music
http://z80.i-demo.pl/ MP3 archive of Z80 chip music

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Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:45 pm

The Mists Atari st core uses the very same vhdl implementation of the ym the speccy2010 also uses.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:21 pm

yerzmyey wrote:MIST has virtually no YM sound (some ugly noises) and they say digi music also doesn't work.


Mist always had a fully working ym and digi sounds also work. There are at least two videos showing Oxyd2 and Midimaze on youtube. Both with digisound.

What do you mean by 'ugly noises'?

And who's 'they'?

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby yerzmyey » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:46 pm

the same - and yet it doesn't work here.
maybe it's time to make a proper Atari ST core.

what do you want me to say dude, I've heard it twice last months, two different machines, two different owners - they were not able to force it to play a single chiptune without profound bugs in sound.
so I write what they showed.

when I see'n'hear a properly working one, I will write about it too.
one day, hopefully.
http://ym-digital.i-demo.pl/ ATARI 520ST music-band
http://ay-riders.speccy.cz/ ZX Spectrum music-band
http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/ ZX/A500/A1200/ST/XL music
https://soundcloud.com/yerzmyey ZX/A500/A1200/ST/STE/F030 music
http://z80.i-demo.pl/ MP3 archive of Z80 chip music

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:26 pm

yerzmyey wrote:maybe it's time to make a proper Atari ST core.


Great! Initially i thought you were just trying to spread FUD. Sorry for that. Will you design your own board? Do you have any code to share already? Will it also be open source so it can ported to the MIST as well?

Can't wait to see first results. That's what i like about the Atari community. People don't just complain, they actually improve and contribute. Excellent.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby troed » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:35 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:Can't wait to see first results. That's what i like about the Atari community. People don't just complain, they actually improve and contribute. Excellent.


:thumbs:

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:36 pm

yerzmyey wrote:what do you want me to say dude,


I already asked you who "they" are as "they" told you digisounds wouldn't work at all. Digisounds do work as you can see in various youtube videos. So you probably really met the wrong people.

Anyway, your core will have a better AY implementation and that's all what counts. Many other projects will have a use for this as well.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby farvardin » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:27 pm

Seriously, I've tested the ym2149 sound from the MiST on the Atari ST and Amstrad CPC cores, and it really rocks. I can't really tell if it sounds exactly like the original, but it seems so. I've made some tests and played with an emulator in one ear, and MiST into an other, and the MiST sound seems to be clearer, but maybe it's just in my head. At least it doesn't sound less good than the emulator (tested with hatari). For Amstrad the sound is better than my emulator (winape), but maybe it's because I'm using wine in addition.

I've also talked about the sinclair spectrum sound. The AY sounds are good, similar to the ones from Atari and Amstrad, maybe it's the same code btw. For the beeper sounds (1bit music), on the contrary there is a speed and accuracy problem. The sound is good, but most musics are slower and transposed since they running slower. Some musics are rather ok though, probably because they are less CPU intensive.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby Hippy Dave » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:36 pm

farvardin wrote:Seriously, I've tested the ym2149 sound from the MiST on the Atari ST and Amstrad CPC cores, and it really rocks. I can't really tell if it sounds exactly like the original, but it seems so. I've made some tests and played with an emulator in one ear, and MiST into an other, and the MiST sound seems to be clearer, but maybe it's just in my head. At least it doesn't sound less good than the emulator (tested with hatari).

The Atari ST sounds less bright than the STE.This is emulated by Hatari. If Hatari ever sounds different from a real Atari ST or STE, I would like to know.

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby farvardin » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:39 pm

I've made a little test, I prepared some files recorded on an Atari ST, on a MiST fpga and on an emulator. If you wish, you can try to guess the correct association.

One is a great tune by Yerzmyey, called "Wake Up":
http://www.uploadmusic.org/MUSIC/4980641450646178.mp3
http://www.uploadmusic.org/MUSIC/6660961450647116.mp3
http://www.uploadmusic.org/MUSIC/932881450646291.mp3

The other one is a tune by Garvalf (hmm, myself), "Silisium Skogen":
http://www.uploadmusic.org/MUSIC/377511450645913.mp3
http://www.uploadmusic.org/MUSIC/9101731450646039.mp3
(on this one, there are only 2 devices, as you can see)

Note: original composers shouldn't give the answer, please ;)

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Re: some questions about YM2149F vs emulators vs MIST

Postby troed » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:20 pm

Hippy Dave wrote:The Atari ST sounds less bright than the STE.This is emulated by Hatari. If Hatari ever sounds different from a real Atari ST or STE, I would like to know.


There are several ways in which Hatari doesn't sound like an original machine. The first version of 7an's song for our STNICCC demo "Closure" had to be scrapped altogether. He wrote the song(s) in Hatari which apparently always plays all voices in phase, while on actual hardware they fall in and out of phase (sometimes cancelling each other out completely). This is somewhat better emulated by SC68.

The other issue I only know the symptom of. In 7an's STNICCC music competition entry SMBLYLINE has hi-hats that sound much lower on real hardware than in Hatari.

/Troed


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