why use ASM anymore

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Foxie
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby Foxie » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:07 pm

Maartau wrote:http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11631&p=341420&hilit=introduce+yourself#p341420

MrPixel wrote:started out on windows 98 and eventually got an XP



Screen Shot 2018-03-16 at 21.04.42.png


I'm glad to see he discovered better platforms!
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby MrPixel » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:09 pm

mfro wrote:
MrPixel wrote:... my question is this: is there a way to do assembly on an atari 800 through BASIC? (IT won't get an assembler and i'm too cheap to buy one)...


You can write an assembler in Basic, and once you have that, you can use this and write it again in assembler. That's how it has been done in the past.


how exactly. there are so many different dialects. besides, my main focus is on the atari and Commodore computers

and shared Syntax?

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby Foxie » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:37 pm

MrPixel wrote:how exactly. there are so many different dialects. besides, my main focus is on the atari and Commodore computers


On BBC BASIC, you put a square bracket on one line then the assembly code begins on following lines. Something like this:

10 [
20 assembly
30 ]

There are ports of BBC BASIC to other platforms, not sure about the Atari.

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby thomas3 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:26 pm

I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY that MrPixel's Colossal Cave listing was not a joke. No way on earth!

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby charles » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:32 pm

foxie what you know about bbc basic ,,, I use fast basic once in a while for fun and it permits direct use asm ..very same manner you depicted above
.are you aware of a compilier for the atarist that could compile 16/32 bit fast basic code into stand alone executable .prg .tos .app for Atari ?
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby MrPixel » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:34 pm

thomas3 wrote:I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY that MrPixel's Colossal Cave listing was not a joke. No way on earth!


it wasn't. and stop trying to get a rise out of me. i was just trying to make a scaled down version. a proof of concept so to speak :lol:

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby mlynn1974 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:39 pm

People who write operating systems, drivers, compilers or work on embedded, real-time or "constrained" systems really need to know assembly language. You should simply use the right tools for the job. Use the language that will produce the required program in the time scale or budget.

In my experience BASIC might not have the functions you need so you have to write an extension to the language. In Visual BASIC that might be a DLL written in C. In STOS it might be an assembly routine to access GEMDOS or remove a screen border. In C for DOS it might be an interrupt service routine to read the position of the mouse. In Sinclair BASIC it could be a sprite routine. An appreciation of the computer's memory layout and the CPUs registers and instruction set helps have a thorough understanding of how the computer works.
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby charles » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:52 pm

why not?
flogging a dead horse might be a more suitable title for this thread ....
I use any and ever language I can apply myself too ,it materializes self written programs...

who doesn't love a code segment of asm code..or whole program ....

previlant Atari has many choices ( very thankful for : ) ) ,,and it makes me defensive that someone needs to be told why use asm anymore ,,is this the work of a juivinial?

so how did I weight in on this topic guys?
is mr pixel looking for a definite answer? or polling/trolling for social aspect?
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby Zippy » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:55 pm

BBC BASIC was great, really ahead of it's time.

With the in line assembler you could run all the pre-calculated stuff in BASIC , like sine tables for sprite movement in a demo, then assemble and run the demo itself in pure machine code, all from within one program listing. I didn't have my Archimedes A3000 for long but did a couple of ARM demo screens on it, more than I ever did on my Amiga that I had for much longer.

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby wongck » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:04 am

what is MLX ?
Googled and it's a bunch of machine readable hexadecimal. Man you must be kidding me.
We have automation now that does that in Modern time, called compilers, that converts to machine readable Hexadecimal.
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby thomas3 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:26 am

MrPixel wrote:
thomas3 wrote:I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY that MrPixel's Colossal Cave listing was not a joke. No way on earth!


it wasn't. and stop trying to get a rise out of me. i was just trying to make a scaled down version. a proof of concept so to speak :lol:


Hey, please, don't stop on my account :lol:

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby MrPixel » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:38 am

well, this is where i leave. trolls like you don't concern me

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby charles » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:02 am

stay , you wanted this conversation..may as well make it worth its exisitance
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby shoggoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:03 am

There is obviously a very special person in every village, but why do they all have to gather here at AF?
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby charles » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:14 am

:lol:
because they all own ataris .....
!! lol !!
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby charles » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:20 am

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=33140

little off topic sorry ........
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby spiny » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:28 pm

MrPixel wrote:well, this is where i leave. trolls like you don't concern me



genuine lol

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby MrPixel » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:29 pm

look, i don't want to be seen as a troll or spammer.

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby thomas3 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:49 am

MrPixel wrote:look, i don't want to be seen as a troll or spammer.


Dude, I thought you'd left because of my "trolling"? :lol:

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby metalages » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:02 pm

Back on demoscene after 20 years of inactivity, I have chosen to mix C and ASM instead of pure ASM.
By rewritting the pure C startup code I was able to compile a program without any standard libraries.
Then you are independent from the OS, you can boot a program from bootsectors...
I keep ASM for interupts and high performance stuffs. The fact is using C for glue code and also to make quick experiments is really convenient.
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby Zamuel_a » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:19 pm

I think programming in 68000 assembly is more or less easier or the same difficulty as program in C. The commands are complex and it's so much easier to keep track of memory and time critical things than doing it in C. On a modern computer it's different ofcourse,
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby metalages » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:29 pm

What do you mean about controlling the memory ? In my case I have full control on memory even in c. I use custom allocators. By reimplementing the startup code you can load your program at a very low address as I do not have system calls. The only thing I do not manage as closely as in asm in the size of the code. But it is not very large with pure c.

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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby joska » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:17 am

Zamuel_a wrote:I think programming in 68000 assembly is more or less easier or the same difficulty as program in C.


Most likely because you have more experience with 68k assembly than C. There is a reason why high level programming languages exists :)
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby Zamuel_a » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:39 pm

I have programmed many languages and on PC it's mostly C or C++, C# and so on...
But on older computers like the Atari I prefer the 68000 assembler. It's not much different than program in C.
C: A = A + 1
ASM ADD #1,D0

C: A = B[10]
ASM MOVE 10(a0),d0


It's more or less the same syntax so it's not difficult to learn. What I mean is that in C I don't know what A = B[10] will compile too. In asm I know what I'm doing and how many cycles it takes.

The only programming I do on Atari is time critical advanced stuff so I guess that's why I prefer assembler. If I for some reason want to create a ordinary slow text editor or something else I would do in on PC in C++ instead ;)
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Re: why use ASM anymore

Postby christos » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:27 pm

Zamuel_a wrote:I have programmed many languages and on PC it's mostly C or C++, C# and so on...
But on older computers like the Atari I prefer the 68000 assembler. It's not much different than program in C.
C: A = A + 1
ASM ADD #1,D0

C: A = B[10]
ASM MOVE 10(a0),d0


It's more or less the same syntax so it's not difficult to learn. What I mean is that in C I don't know what A = B[10] will compile too. In asm I know what I'm doing and how many cycles it takes.

The only programming I do on Atari is time critical advanced stuff so I guess that's why I prefer assembler. If I for some reason want to create a ordinary slow text editor or something else I would do in on PC in C++ instead ;)


Wasn't there a (somewhat ironic) quote that said something like:

The C programming language combines the speed of the assembly language with the ease of use and portability of the assembly language?
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