adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

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earx
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adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby earx » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:21 pm

it should be YM2149 compatible.. sounds good, right? :)

http://www.larwe.com/technical/chip_ym2203.html
http://pdf.alldatasheet.co.kr/datasheet ... M2203.html

i know these chips were -very- polular for arcade machines..
the big question is: where to get them now? anyone got any info on this?

imagination runs wild: FM+PCM versions of every madmax tune =)

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Postby karlm » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:29 am

got me confused earx ... why would you want to try and implement a previous version of a ym chip? I would have thought the 2149 was better equipped, but that's just me ...

if you want real sounds there are docs floating about connecting a yamaha GX soundcard to a ST ...

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Postby earx » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:50 am

hey :) that GX soundcard idea sounds cool!!

the ym2203, despite its low number, is actually superior to the ym2149. it has all 3 square wave voices, the noise generators, and the envelopes of the ym2149. but it also has 3 additional FM voices + 1 PCM voice :)) i actually have no idea why atari had to develop their own SDMA (for the STe/TT) with this chip around in the most arcade systems..

btw, if you can spare the time, please send me those docs about the GX soundcard :))

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Postby ggn » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:56 am

earx wrote:hey :) that GX soundcard idea sounds cool!!

the ym2203, despite its low number, is actually superior to the ym2149. it has all 3 square wave voices, the noise generators, and the envelopes of the ym2149. but it also has 3 additional FM voices + 1 PCM voice :)) i actually have no idea why atari had to develop their own SDMA (for the STe/TT) with this chip around in the most arcade systems..

btw, if you can spare the time, please send me those docs about the GX soundcard :))


Having not bothered to read the docs (!), are the pinouts & connections compatible?

And, as for why Atari didn't use it, does the term 'budget cutting' mean anything to you? :)
Also, consider where Atari put the drive select bit to ;). Talk about cheap, sheesh :)

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Postby earx » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:05 pm

to GGN:

yeah, the ST was a cheap (but also very robust and easy to understand) piece of kit! :) indeed the drive select bit (and also falcon IDE enable!) are on the YM chip, arggl! ;)

but if you know how much trouble had developing their own SDMA hardware (complete with microwire interface and all that) you know they shouldn't have bothered with these "Amiga" tricks ;) just get components off-the-shelf. it's way cheaper then letting a dozen of engineers slave over new IC designs ;)

btw: did you get my mail?

to Karlm:

you still have the docs about the GX card? :) it sounds hot :)

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Postby ggn » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:59 pm

earx wrote:to GGN:

yeah, the ST was a cheap (but also very robust and easy to understand) piece of kit! :) indeed the drive select bit (and also falcon IDE enable!) are on the YM chip, arggl! ;)

but if you know how much trouble had developing their own SDMA hardware (complete with microwire interface and all that) you know they shouldn't have bothered with these "Amiga" tricks ;) just get components off-the-shelf. it's way cheaper then letting a dozen of engineers slave over new IC designs ;)

btw: did you get my mail?


Yeah, but these are the hardware (and software) tricks that distinguish the girlies from the real men (and women ;))

BTW: got your mail, replied it, but it bounced back :( Any valid e-mail addresses?

George
is 73 Falcon patched atari games enough ? ^^

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Postby [ProToS] » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:39 pm

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Postby Stefan jL » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:25 pm

the YM2203 is not pin-compatible with YM2149 it is only software compatible.
Also the YM2203 does not have PCM.

Yamaha DB50XG is a cool soundcard, i still use it in my PC for listening XG-midis :D
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Postby earx » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:31 am

checking the GBX adaption page :) coolness! cheers protos!

ggn: on the ST we were mostly busy with software tricks ;) although the falcon (and ste in some ways) actually has some exotic hardware to exploit.

i sent a mail via this site, it probably has an outdated addy in its database.. my current one:

pvdmeer [at] gmail [dot] com.

btw, shame ym2203 had no pcm..

i also know about AMY, also jeff minter spoke about it in some other thread. this one should have been the pokey follow-up or something. sort-of like an 8 channel SID killer. although i can't believe it would have featured stuff like resonance and FM..

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Postby Stefan jL » Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:17 pm

AMY would for sure had been the soundchip that would be the succesor of C-64 SID... the fact that AMY never was used for the ST is the biggest mistakes Atari ever done if you ask me.
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Postby Stefan jL » Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:16 am

Here is an link to an webpage that has an PDF with the specs of AMY.
http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8bits/xe/xe_protos/65xem.html

It's to difficult for me to understand, but it seems to be a good soundchip?
Sample based? like SCC or something?
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Postby Marakatti » Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:12 am

Just an idea... Is it possible to code a better "YM-soundchip" to the emulator if the commands are compatible? Possible emulating "modern" YM-chip instead of YM2149...
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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby tinctu » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:26 am

But YM2203 sound much better than YM2149!!!
Can You imagine FM chipmusic in demos???

Listen to this:
http://velesoft.speccy.cz/turbo_sound/nedopc/tsfm-space_standart%20(shiru).mp3
http://velesoft.speccy.cz/turbo_sound/nedopc/tsfm-dejavu%20(krba).mp3
http://velesoft.speccy.cz/turbo_sound/nedopc/tsfm-napolus%20(krba).mp3
It sounds like music from latest PC demos!!!

I mean this intro:
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/demos/groups/ko ... _kolor.avi

and the concept can be as cartrige expansion for ST,STE,FALCON!!!

Image
Case by icomp.de
Image
plus 2xGold Cinch AudioOUT:
Image
Image

FM soundcard is what ST,STE demos needs!!!

FM-ST Cart can have this specs:
Cartrige Case
2xYM2203
2xGold Cinch as AudioOUT
...

+ FM-ST Tracker :)


ZX Spectrum version:
TURBOSOUND FM (czech)
http://velesoft.speccy.cz/turbosound-cz.htm
ZX Spectrum PCBs:
http://velesoft.speccy.cz/turbo_sound/p ... ematic.zip
http://velesoft.speccy.cz/turbo_sound/p ... _eagle.zip
DATASHEET:
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/3763369.pdf
Last edited by tinctu on Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:45 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby tinctu » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:27 am

It was just my little brainstorming :))...
But good idea or not???
You know I am electronic stuff numb hand... I can´t do that...

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby Nyh » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:12 pm

tinctu wrote:It was just my little brainstorming :))...
But good idea or not???
You know I am electronic stuff numb hand... I can´t do that...
20 years ago it would have been a good idea. Now most of us run Atari on an emulator. How many demo's are written these days? How many of those demo writers would cut down their potential viewers by using a new piece of hardware?

Does the ST need new sound so it just sounds like PC? ST does also need a new processor, something like Core Duo would be nice, then add a decent graphics card... Can you imagine that? A ST with new processor and a good graphics card? Well, it called a MacinTOSh.

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby Greenious » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:02 pm

It is relatively easy to add hardware to the ST, adding another soundchip is not a big deal.

Replacing the PSG is harder though, because of the diverse use of the general purpose registers.

Anyway, the hardware is not the big deal, it is the software that is the problem.

Marcer has been talking to me about adding another soundchip, and I know he's been trying to get some of the PSG tracker authors interested in expanding them to support such an addition, but with no luck.

With chipmusic getting a revival, there is actually a market for such an upgrade, from what I've learned.
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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby bullis1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:46 pm

Nyh wrote:
tinctu wrote:It was just my little brainstorming :))...
But good idea or not???
You know I am electronic stuff numb hand... I can´t do that...
20 years ago it would have been a good idea. Now most of us run Atari on an emulator. How many demo's are written these days? How many of those demo writers would cut down their potential viewers by using a new piece of hardware?
...
Hans Wessels


Well, there's more to ST than just the demoscene. I for one use my ST for music production. I use a variety of midi software and trackers, and I also use an assortment of external sound cartridges for ST. I'd use such a device for sure. Also, I don't even have an Atari ST emulator on my computer and I'm sure there are many others in my position.

However, a device such as this would be completely useless if there wasn't at least one good tracker that supported it.

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby tinctu » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:19 am

@bullis1->Yeah FM cartrige???Can You post please name of that cartrige?It is sure MIDI compatible...That is cool!!! :P

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby tinctu » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:23 am

@Greenious->Yeah it is HARDWARE+SOFTWARE and donˇt forget COMPOSERS problem too.
Hardware withouth Software support... is nothing.
Software withouth Users support... is nothing.
You are right to be as new standard (I mean soundchip) whole scene must support it...
Not only few geeks...

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby bullis1 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:01 pm

tinctu wrote:@bullis1->Yeah FM cartrige???Can You post please name of that cartrige?It is sure MIDI compatible...That is cool!!! :P


Sorry, my post was not clear. I have many cartridges for digital sound tracking. I do not have an FM cartridge for ST. For FM sound on ST, I use a Yamaha FB-01 module. It is MIDI controlled, and very cheap. It also has good software for ST called YSEDITOR to program the synth.

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby Nyh » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:39 pm

bullis1 wrote:
tinctu wrote:@bullis1->Yeah FM cartrige???Can You post please name of that cartrige?It is sure MIDI compatible...That is cool!!! :P


Sorry, my post was not clear. I have many cartridges for digital sound tracking. I do not have an FM cartridge for ST. For FM sound on ST, I use a Yamaha FB-01 module. It is MIDI controlled, and very cheap. It also has good software for ST called YSEDITOR to program the synth.

So the is a very cheap solution for adding FM sound on the ST, even comes with excellent software.

Problem solved!

Hans Wessels

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby bullis1 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:07 pm

Nyh wrote:So the is a very cheap solution for adding FM sound on the ST, even comes with excellent software.

Problem solved!

Hans Wessels


But you are so wrong. No tracker supports it, only MIDI software. Therefore, you do not get the maximum control over the chips that you can with tracker/cartridge type setups. While you can do patch changes, pitch bends, and the typical stuff, you do not have the possibility of any advanced effects found in trackers. It is really not the same unfortunately.

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby earx » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:07 am

haven't visited this board for a while but Tinctu's post seemed really nice! it would be great if that turbosound could be adapted to the ST. sadly, my hardware design skills are lacking and soldering is also limited to switch/wire/connector (simple) type of stuff ;)

MrNi: oh, come on.. not that much demos being written for the ST? excluding a zillion intros there were 3 big ones last year. and the chipmusic scene is booming! there are more people poking the AY and YM than ever.

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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby Stefan jL » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:11 pm

The "enhanced PSG" AY8930 would be an easy upgrade in the ST... just solder off the YM and put in the AY.
AY8930 works fine with the ST i just tested, but some changes to the soundcircuit (caps and resistors) might be needed to make the sound more clear.
I have no idea what the "enhanced" features are of the AY8930 since there is no software that makes use of them.

Sorry for editing your post. I don't usually edit users posts, but I wanted to emphasize the problem with adding soundchips, or even replacing the old one... If you feel offended, let me know and I restore your message the way it was (Without bold text)// Greenious
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Re: adding an FM soundchip to the ST?

Postby simbo_backdoor » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:16 am

placing a larger electrolytic cap on the supply pin of crap sounding chips usualy fixes them to sound better
if your stf doesnt sound so good simply port the sound via a graphic equaliser and cut off the top end to get rid of the system noise
this is usualy carried into the chip via its supply rails
and in atari isnt so well decoupled so noise gets into the sound chips power supply and corrupts the nice audio it should produce
many modern pc's even ones with 7.1 speakers and this and that card etc sound just as crap and full of noise
adding a decent current resoviour cures most of this up
if you supply the machines exact details ill tell you where to add the cap {st stf ste falcon} or even your pc....
this is fact
i recently changed this cap on my sblive an audigy and audigy2 also a unified main board {one that has sound and video built in
and just changing it for a decent one made a big differance
i then went on to add a decent hifi quality opamp to the line out and suround stages on the live and audigy and audigy 2
now its perfect with no noise and a super low level noise floor
a proper audio card
so i believe a similar opamp and cap mod to atari could be done on the cheep
and cheer up the sound
i site this place as an example http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.ph ... e&t=168831
and can recommend some of the mods also be done to ataris
forinstance the ste
change u504 u507 {quad opamps } for this chip in dil package ,,,, LME49740
add a 330uf @16v electrolytic to pin 40 of the sound chip {vcc connection}
add also 3 X 10nf resin dipped as close to the pin 40 pin 25 and pin 28 as possible and the other end's to ground
100nf ceramic type ste has isnt enought to stop all the system clicks pops and mouse movement wizzz....
you can get the LME chip from suppliers or from the maker on sample
{maybe they change there samples types the package supplied seems to change type at will}
i got four duals and 4 quads for about 25$ postage cost in smd but recently they will only supply pdip or dil
but man the chip to buy is £6 each {maybe 10 euros or so}
so i saved a packet for what i needed
attached is what me and my pal are working on just now it will be silver plated boards and solid sterling silver hookup wires to the pots and i/o
you can see the pictures in the archive attached below
but to view the designs youll need a demo of proteus vsm {www.labcenter.co.uk}
its just an example of what can be done with a little thought instead of replacing what is a good sound chip anyway
with not much better if you dont add these mods it will still sound bad
... in the design here we plan 3 boards per channel and one psu for a 6band notching parametric eq
using hifi buff quality chips instead of grotty pre 2000 era crap massmarket opamps
and is ment as an example of an older design revamped using modern chips
and a little few changes to the circuit ,layouts and materials used


........ :mrgreen:


dont forget if you mod this way with these opamps then you need to burn the chip in by leaving the machine running with audio for about 24hrs
to get the full chips glory
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