MORE MEMORY UPGRADE PROBLEMS

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, Greenious, spiny, Moderator Team

User avatar
membot
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:57 am

MORE MEMORY UPGRADE PROBLEMS

Postby membot » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:13 am

HELLO! as this is my first atari forum post i'll say THANK YOU! in advance!

o.k.

i just recently bought a 4 meg upgrade, installed it, ran CHECK ST and have not noticed ANY change!

when i run check st, memory is displayed at: 1024k

also, when i try to install cubase switcher i am greeted with the familiar "not enough memory" prompt (which drives me crazy~!~!~!~) and when i run the electronic cow arpegiator, the sequencer slows down just like it did with 1 meg when i move the mouse...

so would this mean that i still only have 1 meg? that 3 out of the 4 simms are bad? or maybe i installed them wrong? ( i did replace them in the reverse order, from top to bottom where the bottom would be closest to the keyboard).

if anyone can help me i'd REALLY appreciate it!

-j.

simbo

memory

Postby simbo » Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:37 am

i take it it is an ste we are on about

you need to use 70ns or 60/70ns types 30pin non parity
use ones from an old pc count the chips odd numbers of chips on a sim indicates it is a parity or ecc and to be avoided

i think your ram may be the wrong type
hence the reason for the incorrect count

although you need to try to match types across banks
maybe the ones you have are just 256 k type's

its worth checking and by replacement

look to the local shop or computer breaker ask for these types

atari is relativly fussy about ram so no big problems yet.... :roll:

User avatar
membot
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:57 am

Postby membot » Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:24 am

yes simbo, and ste.

thank you for your advice! i am going to check out the sims and get back to you...

funny that they would function as a 1 meg bank, eh?

how do i go about telling if they are 60/70 ns chips?

thank you!

User avatar
Total Eclipse
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:20 pm
Location: Sheepy Magna, UK

Postby Total Eclipse » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:59 am

Actually, if my fading memory serves me correctly, the STe should work with memory speeds as low as 120ns, so pretty much any speed SIMM you can find should work, providing it's non-parity.
Atari equipment all in storage - Now playing with MiST :)

User avatar
manicx
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:58 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Postby manicx » Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:22 am

Also, have in mind that several STEs (early models) were released with SIPs instead of SIMMs which are rare. I managed to get 4 from the German ebay for 1 euro :lol: ! I also got some SIP-SIMM converters which are VERY rare!
Image

User avatar
keili
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:29 pm
Location: Germany, near Leer
Contact:

Postby keili » Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:34 am

What's the difference between SIMM and SIP-SIMM?

User avatar
membot
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:57 am

Postby membot » Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:59 am

o.k.

i just checked a simm and low and behold, there are 3 chips!!! 8O

so, is this then the problem? i don't think that i need the other type of ram (i hope not at least...) so would it be safe to say that the 3 chip simms are the problem?

like i said, when all 4 simms are in i have a total of 1024k ram according to the check st program...so would this simply be a compatability problem?

i'm trying to find out what ns # they are...

here's what the the chips say:

two big ones have this printed on them:

AAAIM204J-07H
NMBS 9034

one smaller one says this:

AAA280IJ-07
NMBS 9032

then there's what i guess is a serial #: SJ2563

on the back: 91 33 (made in japan :D )
or it could be EE 16 (but i'm thinking the 1st one is the right one...)

the funny thing is that i bought these off of someone who has a web site where not only does he sell these specifically for atari (and listed as "ideal for cubase") but he also has some great atari apps free to download...
one would think that someone like this would know what works and what doesn't...

looking forward to see what you all think!

simbo

Postby simbo » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:55 pm

sounds like parity eec if it is three chips

well its the wrong type

on another topic i would definatly never run 120ns memory on any st even the stfm

in the schematic it mentions 70ns or 80 ns types only in a box near to the memory on sheet pcx5 of the ste schematic avalible


so stick to 70 ns as what to aim for

cubase will never run with 120ns ram if even the ste will boot properly
:( ye some guys on the net sellling ram maybe dont check what they send

look for an old 486 or 386 pc near you and rob it
Last edited by simbo on Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

simbo

Postby simbo » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:57 pm

sounds like parity eec if it is three chips

well its the wrong type

on another topic i would definatly never run 120ns memory on any st even the stfm

in the schematic it mentions 70ns or 80 ns types only in a box near to the memory on sheet pcx5 of the ste schematic avalible


so stick to 70 ns as what to aim for

cubase will never run with 120ns ram if even the ste will boot properly



pc memory is usualy compatable
mac memory definatly isnt
:( ye some guys on the net sellling ram maybe dont check what they send

look for an old 486 or 386 pc near you and rob it



1mb ram usualy has 8 chips some 8 chips each side
some have 4 each side some just 4 on one side

but as i pointed out
the memory chips number is followed by a xxxxx -80 or a xxxxx-70s or something
this is the refresh speed like 80ns or 70ns types

User avatar
manicx
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:58 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Postby manicx » Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:34 am

keili wrote:What's the difference between SIMM and SIP-SIMM?


The difference is in the way they connect to the motherboard. SIMM sockets are the well known SIMM sockets. SIP sockets have some holes and the SIPs have just the metalic pins hanging out. This means you can easily break a pin and then you need to do some soldiering to put it back. SIPs were abandoned because they were too sensitive and the pins were breaking easily. Simple as that....
Image

User avatar
keili
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:29 pm
Location: Germany, near Leer
Contact:

Postby keili » Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:22 am

Thx, manicx. Now the difference is clear. I bought 4 of the SIMM-SIP some weeks ago at ebay, offered as RAM for Atari ST and didn't know, in which ST they're used. Don't even know, how much RAM you'll get with them. 2 of them have 3 chips, one labeled with KM4164B and 2 with LH2464.
The other 2 also have 3 chips labeled HYB513256AJ.
If anyone needs them, let me know.

User avatar
Total Eclipse
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:20 pm
Location: Sheepy Magna, UK

Postby Total Eclipse » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:20 am

I knew I wasn't going totally insane!!!

This site lists the minimum memory speeds for upgrading memory on ST's http://www.megacom.net/~q-funk/ST/#q31, and also suggests that parity simms should work without problem.

I remember ST Format covering a section on memory speeds, so I'm sure the 120ns is correct, though I'm not sure whether the parity statement is right or not.

OOI Simbo, why would Cubase not run on 120ns RAM?
Atari equipment all in storage - Now playing with MiST :)

simbo

Postby simbo » Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:18 pm

Total Eclipse wrote:I knew I wasn't going totally insane!!!

This site lists the minimum memory speeds for upgrading memory on ST's http://www.megacom.net/~q-funk/ST/#q31, and also suggests that parity simms should work without problem.

I remember ST Format covering a section on memory speeds, so I'm sure the 120ns is correct, though I'm not sure whether the parity statement is right or not.

OOI Simbo, why would Cubase not run on 120ns RAM?



120 ns ram is as slow as a snail i wouldnt even use it in a printer
appart from the fact ive never seen a 120ns 30pin simm
only older single chip memory in st stf or fm


so the machines memory is perminatly playing catch up with the higher clock speed of the machine
or more often just wont boot
fine 120ns will work with stfm in 8mhz clock land

but for each time you double cpu speed
you MUST double the speed of the ram

for stf and stfm older slower ram is fine becouse it runs at 8mhz only

but ste and > are a 16/32 mhz machine''s in essance
so will need 70 ns memory or better before they run very stable

the point is not to boot the machine

its to get a stable machine that boots and runs for more than a few hrs

as for parity ram

parity registered or ecc checking ram is NOT compatable with any atari i dont care what that site says he is wrong also


the sipp modules you have are easily idented
there is a number on the front

KM4164B 4mb non parity
LH2464. 2mb parity
HYB513256AJ. 256k non parity



hehe i like his text though


If your ST is equipped with SIMM memory, you can easily upgrade your memory to 1, 2 or 4Mb by just taking out the old SIMMs and popping in the new ones. <<<LOL ROFL HEHE :P if you use the right type !!!!

The correct memory type is 30 pin SIMMs, with or without parity{LOL}, capacity being either 256Kb or 1Mb. {what about 512k types}
The minimum speed of 256Kb SIMMs is 150ns and 120ns{ye if you want to look at the desktop only....}
for 1Mb SIMMs. It is best not to mix different SIMM types.{rubbish as long as the simm pads are gold colour}
They must be installed by pairs in slots 1 and 3, then 2 and 4 (from back to front). /P> yes but 512k types go in slot 1 and 2

Atari STEs are originally equipped with either 2 (520STE) or 4 (1040STE) 256Kb *** SIMMs that can be replaced by 2 or 4 x 1Mb SIMMs.

you can add up to 16 mb to any st tos any version it dosnt matter
its all in the hardware.... map





**** add my comment as a last
Atari STEs are originally equipped with 256k granted BUT ARE
80ns ram types
no where near the 120 ns you mention or the 150 he claims
:P
Last edited by simbo on Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.

simbo

difinitive memory upgrade faq

Postby simbo » Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:44 pm

ST/STFM use any chip/s as these are solder in or an upgrade board
no lower than 80ns type's but 120 limit as you say but 80ns will work becouse over 1mb on these machines needs a simm board so the 80 ns rule applies

STE use sipps or simm's 80 ns {music machine} 70ns{games machine} 80ns {mixed machine}
noslower than 80ns
o3o use there own board so is preset to the right type

to finish

faster ram is good and the machine will improve performance
but add a fan a few bonded heatsinks to the chips like the cpu and memory the dma and memory controller the shifter and the floppy controller if you use 2.06 tos then also upgrade the psu to atx type
and add a hdd and the system speed will compare to a 486 machine at least

separate psu's are a bad idea becouse the atari's chassis dosnt float so the voltage ranges will have subtle differances



there were many many upgrade kits
it isnt recomended to use above 80 ns refresh on any st these days....! faster ram = less glitch = less packet loss =less crashes and a faster machine and software is less fussy

User avatar
Total Eclipse
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:20 pm
Location: Sheepy Magna, UK

Re: difinitive memory upgrade faq

Postby Total Eclipse » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:50 am

simbo wrote:STE use sipps or simm's 80 ns {music machine} 70ns{games machine} 80ns {mixed machine}
noslower than 80ns


That sounds reasonable. I agree that the speed is important. I think I'm mostly impressed that I remembered the 120ns thing from reading it in a magazine about 15 years ago!
Atari equipment all in storage - Now playing with MiST :)

User avatar
membot
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:57 am

Postby membot » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:48 pm

just wanted to thank simbo and everyone for the info once more!

the replacement ram arrived today, fitted it, ran check st and viola! 4096k!

one thing, i remembered the bit about odd chip #'s not being compatible and that mostly you'll see 1 meg sticks with 8 chips...

these have 9 chips on one side and work fine!

whatever works, eh?

User avatar
Greenious
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:39 pm
Location: Sweden

Postby Greenious » Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:27 pm

Without getting too technical, memory timing is not the only factor you have to consider...

Actually, the ST(E) accesses DRAM in one speed, and one speed only. As long as the memory is fast enough (120 ns) it should work.

If it doesn't, possible reasons are:

Fan in-Fan out problems. The TTL circuits driving the memory have problems. Standard LS-TTL can drive 10 other LS circuits from one output. If the memory chips demands a little extra umpf at the inputs, that could be the problem. (The main reason some recommend replacing the TLL logic driving the memory I think)

Refresh problems. Not all DRAM chips refreshes the same way. If they demand a refresh cycle not provided by the mmu, refresh won't happen and the memory lose data.

Too fast memory can also be a problem. If they are very fast, they can expect a very fast ras to cas ratio, and will basically crash because they don't get data fast enough.

Parity is not a problem, usually. It depends on how advanced the parity is implemented though.


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests