TT030 clone - is it possible ?

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TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby nagual » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:42 am

Well, I'm wondering how easy/hard/impossible will be made a TT030 clone based on modern hardware ?
Including support for USB, IDE/SATA etc...

Based around TOS 3.06 with extra missing features load separately.
Instead of HDD - SSD of SD Card, resolution from 640x400x2 to 1920x1080x32.
Support for USB Floppy and CD-ROM etc...
Obviously, this is not a hobby project, or one-man work.

No games support, no demos support, MIDI over USB, strictly business oriented machine.

So I'm really interested what will be approx. price for developing, motherboards, additional drivers, some missing apps etc...
I must mention that I am not interested to run MiNT, because we allready have FireBee - pure TOS/Geneva/N.AES even hated MagiC :-)))

Please post your ideas, pro's and con's

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:50 am

TT clone in 2017, for some serious usage, if I got it right ? Clones were already done - like Milan, Firebee ... Not strictly TT clones, but stronger machines, with multitask OS.
This will not happen, that's what I say. Especially not with some HD resolution. And even, if someone made HW, there will be no SW - because that's the more time consuming part.
What business you have in mind, what OS it should have ?
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby nagual » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:10 pm

I have a meeting some times ago with bunch of my clients who are very dissatisfied with existing operating systems, and need something different.
They saw MagiC PC and Aranym on my laptop and they were delighted how smooth, fast and good Atari software work.

But...they want real hardware, not emulation, so we discuss a lot about making some sort of TT030 clone.
Why TT030 ?

Because, some of my clients are former Atari users with good knowledge about Atari hardware and they decide that TT030 clone will be just enough for all needs - everyday office work, image manipulations etc...

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby joska » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:24 pm

A MIST in "STEroids" mode is almost as fast as a real TT, and supports 1280x1024 in mono as well. I'd say that Sorgelig's "MiSTer"-project would be much faster than a real TT.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:37 pm

nagual wrote:... who are very dissatisfied with existing operating systems, and need something different.
They saw MagiC PC and Aranym on my laptop and they were delighted how smooth, fast and good Atari software work.
But...they want real hardware, not emulation, so we discuss a lot about making some sort of TT030 clone.
Why TT030 ?
Because, some of my clients are former Atari users with good knowledge about Atari hardware and they decide that TT030 clone will be just enough for all needs - everyday office work, image manipulations etc...


Yes, I'm not satisfied with modern OS, Windows in first place, especially with what they did and do with Win 10. But then, why not using PC architecture as base, and add OS by your desire. Of course, here I don't mean emulation, but running it as base OS. Actually, it is already done.

I'm sure that there is a lot of what some TT could do. But putting enormous effort in recreation of it is just bad idea. Get some of mentioned clones if insist on 680xx CPU.
Finally, the thread title: it is not question is it possible. Real question is: is it worth of all effort and money ? Is there some better, cheaper solution what can serve in same purpose (running Aranym, MagiC PC ?
Ops: you mentioned Magic PC here :lol:
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby joska » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:31 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Get some of mentioned clones if insist on 680xx CPU.


Only if you enjoy high maintenance machines :D

Seriously, if somebody wanted to use TOS/MiNT/MagiC for serious work today then they should stay away from 20+ year old computers. Use an emulator or a MIST.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby nagual » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:05 pm

I'm obviously not good explained my idea - I never think about TT030 clone in original way, Motorola processor etc...

As AtariZoll said, my idea was modern PC hardware with TOS/NAES/Geneva/you name it....as primary OS.

And progress in any way doesn't mean necessary something good:-), specially in today's software..
I'd rather use Papyrus then Word, Phoenix or Twist over Access etc...
Why?

Because this "old" software is actually more reliable then all new garbage on the market, and that's a fact:-)
Including this piece of sh*t called Windows.

How many people (users) REALLY need most of the Microsoft Office options ?
Not too much, actually 1-2% need some advanced features, and with this advanced feature they use effectively 5 % of program possibilities:-))
I do it same thing with Papyrus or any other similar Atari software :-)

But I'm , unfortunately, aware of reality - Atari community is too small, based on hobby programmers/hardware creators, and everything about using Atari hardware/software in any kind of business requires a lot of money and skilled pro's:-)

Another question was "is it worth of all effort and money" ?
For me, absolutely :-)

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby Cyprian » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:16 pm

+1 for a new TT

what about CPU?
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby farvardin » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:21 pm

If something like Linux doesn't satisfy you, you can have a look at the Haiku OS, it's based on BeOS and has a neat appearance. And also it's fast (not for browsing the web though).
Otherwise, you still can run ST on STeroid with MiST.

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby nagual » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:02 pm

farvardin wrote:If something like Linux doesn't satisfy you, you can have a look at the Haiku OS, it's based on BeOS and has a neat appearance. And also it's fast (not for browsing the web though).
Otherwise, you still can run ST on STeroid with MiST.


But I have my favorite OS - TOS/NAES/Geneva/Magic/Mint - don't need anything else though:-)

Linux is great, and I actually using Linux Mint from years now - no complains:-))
And with Aranym - winner:-)))

But, my wish is to have something like new TT with all modern options...

How difficult is to make that ?
Really difficult:-)

Is it worth it ?
YES !!!!!

But it's only me:-))

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:39 am

nagual wrote:But, my wish is to have something like new TT with all modern options...
How difficult is to make that ?
Really difficult:-)
Is it worth it ?
YES !!!!!
But it's only me:-))

If TT was manufactured in 2 million quantity it would be so-so realistic. But things are that it was in much less, and SW count made specially for is low too.
So, if you can collect some 100K $ for this project, maybe :D

I think that here is rather the case of need to running specific SW - as I see from your other posts. Maybe should try other way - doing that SW for Linux.
I really don't see that TOS, Magic can compete today. Mint was always problematic for me - well I'm not average used, maybe I just hit it's weak points, but that makes it not flawless.
I could do 99% of my needs in Ubuntu Linux. But that 1% of SW, what runs only in Windows is my main Atari support tool - Steem Debugger.
Btw. what about Aranym ? Finally - wouldn't be much easier to make new Papyrus instead new HW and OS ?
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby nagual » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:39 am

AtariZoll wrote:
nagual wrote:But, my wish is to have something like new TT with all modern options...
How difficult is to make that ?
Really difficult:-)
Is it worth it ?
YES !!!!!
But it's only me:-))

If TT was manufactured in 2 million quantity it would be so-so realistic. But things are that it was in much less, and SW count made specially for is low too.
So, if you can collect some 100K $ for this project, maybe :D

I think that here is rather the case of need to running specific SW - as I see from your other posts. Maybe should try other way - doing that SW for Linux.
I really don't see that TOS, Magic can compete today. Mint was always problematic for me - well I'm not average used, maybe I just hit it's weak points, but that makes it not flawless.
I could do 99% of my needs in Ubuntu Linux. But that 1% of SW, what runs only in Windows is my main Atari support tool - Steem Debugger.
Btw. what about Aranym ? Finally - wouldn't be much easier to make new Papyrus instead new HW and OS ?



Hm....what can I say except I agree with you totally:-)
Your MiNT situation is like mine - I know is good, but, somehow, they were never "sitdown" in my head.

And what to say about Aranym?
ONE OF THE BEST PIECE OF SOFTWARE i SAW :-))

And I use all the time:-))


P.S. I have one question about Ubuntu, but I'm sending You a PM:-))

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby 1st1 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:31 am

There is the Suska project... https://www.experiment-s.de/de/

And there is the Apollo/Vampire project which in theory could also be ATARI compatible... Maybe our friends makes it possible? EmuTOS and MiNT already runs on Vampire, using SAGA's advanced video modes.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby joska » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:29 pm

nagual wrote:I'm obviously not good explained my idea - I never think about TT030 clone in original way, Motorola processor etc...

As AtariZoll said, my idea was modern PC hardware with TOS/NAES/Geneva/you name it....as primary OS.


So it's not a clone at all. It's a PC running TOS 3.06. But how? You say "no emulator", but you can't run any of the software you mention - TOS included -
without an emulator.

I see only two realistic options:

1 - Implement the necessary chips in FPGA on something like the DE-10 FPGA-board. It has USB, ethernet, SD-slot, HDMI and 1Gb RAM. Or write an Atari core for the Vampire standalone.

2 - Emulator. Either PC-based or maybe a "bare metal" solution for something like the Raspberry Pi if you don't want another OS in the background.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:31 pm

Emulator on a cheap fanless Zotac Zbox is the way forward for what you want.
Then you can work on stuff like higher resolutions and fixing and improving software.
You'd have to do that anyway with new hardware so if you don't even get the software done it's a dead project.
While I appreciate liking older simpler designs of UI and app the work to get that isn't justified today. Yes the machines are massively over specced and the software bloated, but short of firing up old hardware or an emulator and running older stuff, you're stuck with it.
And you're still stuck with it if you insist on modern high resolution video and connectivity as you're not getting that on older machines.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby Neurotoxic » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:25 pm

The Firebee might be a solution but due to its coldfire cpu some applications won't run on the bee but it's a very fast MiNT machine and the fastest TOS machine to browse the internet.

Personally I miss a TOS machine based on the 68060 or something faster and compatible to the 68060 cpu in a common format like ATX or ITX. The Milan II would had been such a machine. I liked the concept of the Milan using common components and a common format. I do think that all contemporary projects like the firebee and the mist are lacking of doing so. But I'm not sure if a new clone would work anyway. There is hardly new software developed anymore for TOS. There are some good old applications but they are just 20 years of age so it's becoming more and more difficult to deal with current formats. For me a new clone would be a nice computer and I would try it to explore what's possible by using it. But I'm sure that I won't use it for my daily work anymore.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby wongck » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:58 pm

Wow great idea !!
Would be a remake of some clones like Hades, Medusa etc, no?

nagual wrote:Well, I'm wondering how easy/hard/impossible will be made a TT030 clone based on modern hardware ?
Including support for USB, IDE/SATA etc...

Based around TOS 3.06 with extra missing features load separately.
Instead of HDD - SSD of SD Card, resolution from 640x400x2 to 1920x1080x32.
Support for USB Floppy and CD-ROM etc...
Obviously, this is not a hobby project, or one-man work.

No games support, no demos support, MIDI over USB, strictly business oriented machine.

So I'm really interested what will be approx. price for developing, motherboards, additional drivers, some missing apps etc...
I must mention that I am not interested to run MiNT, because we allready have FireBee - pure TOS/Geneva/N.AES even hated MagiC :-)))

Please post your ideas, pro's and con's
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby leech » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:14 am

Hell, I'd be grateful for a TT060 with a USB/Ethernet/VGA card going out the VME slot, but if I recall from previous discussions on that, the VME slot couldn't handle all of that, possibly VGA+Ethernet, though VGA+USB would be better, since you could in theory get a USB ethernet adapter.

Why a TT030 though, vs a Falcon030 clone? More flexible resolutions, better TOS, etc. I guess if you're talking case + external keyboard, I could see that being nicer. Has that really strong 'workstation' feel.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby Atari030 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:15 am

I guess if you are offloading video to a card (or processor) there isn't much point running native resolutions? More for GEM based work.

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby nagual » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:25 am

Well , I'm actually happy to see different ideas and opinions about thing such as TT030 clone:-))

All of this is just idea in my head, but, maybe I'll try to make something...

Couple days ago, I made an very interesting conversation with my good friend - he's a hardware expert, specialized for Sinclair QL and Atari (through me), and what he told me, make me thinking.

So, he say that, technically, if we don't make EXACT replica, new "clone" process is actually, relative simple, because TT030 is, by his opinion, nice and elegant machine with good hardware logic:-)

Question is what processor I will use ?

Of course, we have some options - Motorola processors, like 68040, 68060, Apollo 68080 or any derivate from this processors - excuse me if I'm not precise, this is not area of my expertize:-))
Other option is one of intel processors, but, in this case, we need any kind of "emulator", or "frame" to start native GEM apps.
And last option is one of FPGA...

Any of this options has many pro's and con's.
Motorola, as native choice, is actually pretty expensive - he told me, (if I understand well) that 68060 cost approx. 200$ by piece, and about 120$ for 10 and more.
On the other side, other processors is cheaper, but, in this case, we loose a native compatibility and need some kind of emulator.

Another question was - what I want to see in this machine?
I told him - all modern connectors, like USB, Ethernet, HDMI, SATA, SDD supportetc, high and compatible resolutions...
Possibility to run WI-FI etc..

HIs answer was, that someone need to write drivers for that, actually , someone need to write ALL missing things, specially if we are talking about non-MiNT based machine.

Conclusion was, that TT030 clone based on my ideas and Motorola 68060/Apolo 68080 need AT LEAST 200 pieces to cover basic expenses:-)
And we don't talk about designing motherboard, writing drivers, other missing code and apps etc...

Anyway, he promise me to make kind of prototype (ha had some 68060 at home) so we can see :-)))

Maybe, maybe , we can produce something really good, maybe not, but, worth to try, right ?

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:59 am

There is one big problem (beside price) with 68060 in case of TT clone - it is not 100% SW compatible with 68030. What means that plenty of SW will need patching to work on it - starting with TOS self, of course.
Maybe better way would be using some new, multi-core CPU as fast 68030 emulator - if it emulates only CPU and nothing else, it could be really very fast.
Of course, some fast logic CPLD for interfacing is necessary, but it costs not much. Good side would be that CPU can be 100% SW compatible.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby joska » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:06 am

AtariZoll wrote:There is one big problem (beside price) with 68060 in case of TT clone - it is not 100% SW compatible with 68030. What means that plenty of SW will need patching to work on it - starting with TOS self, of course.


After having used "serious" GEM-software on a 060-computer the last 16 years I'd say you'd have to look hard to find "serious" software that has problems with the 060. The real problem is that the 060 hasn't been manufactured for years.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby nagual » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:55 pm

joska wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:There is one big problem (beside price) with 68060 in case of TT clone - it is not 100% SW compatible with 68030. What means that plenty of SW will need patching to work on it - starting with TOS self, of course.


After having used "serious" GEM-software on a 060-computer the last 16 years I'd say you'd have to look hard to find "serious" software that has problems with the 060. The real problem is that the 060 hasn't been manufactured for years.


Unfortunatelly, I don't have any expirience with 68060, and, as I said, I'm totally noob about hardware specs etc...

So, Joska had obviously more experience in running software on 68060 (CT60 I assume?)

On the other side, I think AtariZoll have right about multi-core CPU, seems like really good option:-))

@Joska
What about Apollo 68080?
What's Your opinion about software compatibility ?

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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby joska » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:10 pm

nagual wrote:So, Joska had obviously more experience in running software on 68060 (CT60 I assume?)


Milan060. There's plenty of compatibility-issues, but that's because the Milan lacks all the chips you'll find in an ST or TT except for the MFP :) So only applications that use the AES and VDI correctly works.

nagual wrote:On the other side, I think AtariZoll have right about multi-core CPU, seems like really good option:-))


Yes, maybe some ARM with 1Gb RAM, wifi, SD-card, ethernet and HDMI? Oh, I think I just described a Raspberry Pi... A "bare metal" emulator for a recent Pi is probably the most realistic option.

nagual wrote:What about Apollo 68080?
What's Your opinion about software compatibility ?


Probably better than a plain 68060, but without an MMU. Anyway, the CPU is not the problem. You describe a computer that's not really compatible with any Atari, designed to run "serious" software. Much like the Milan in fact. Any compatibility issues are much more likely to be caused by dependencies to ST/TT/Falcon chips and not the CPU itself.
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Re: TT030 clone - is it possible ?

Postby wongck » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:38 pm

leech wrote:Hell, I'd be grateful for a TT060 with a USB/Ethernet/VGA card going out the VME slot, but if I recall from previous discussions on that, the VME slot couldn't handle all of that, possibly VGA+Ethernet, though VGA+USB would be better, since you could in theory get a USB ethernet adapter.

Why a TT030 though, vs a Falcon030 clone? More flexible resolutions, better TOS, etc. I guess if you're talking case + external keyboard, I could see that being nicer. Has that really strong 'workstation' feel.


My guess is that TT is more geared towards a serious work computer.
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