Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, spiny, Greenious, Moderator Team

User avatar
IngoQ
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Brunswick - Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby IngoQ » Wed May 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Faucon2001 wrote:A STE 68k bus adapter already exists and has been built buy Alanh (originally a memory expansion board). It's a daughter board which plugs on the square 68K of the STE, move the 68K Processor and gives a mega bus. I used one to adapt a H&N multiboard on my STE.
See topic : viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29482&hilit=H%26amp%3BN+multiboard
It works but it takes a lot of space (see pictures)


The "lot of space" is relative, if you consider what I found ;)

This here
Image

And on top:
Image
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
IngoQ
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Brunswick - Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby IngoQ » Wed May 24, 2017 2:17 pm

Shockwav3 wrote:Those plugin solutions are crap (sorry alanh) ... I have one by GEsoft and it's been the source for a lot of frustration.
Best solution would be to remove the original socket, and solder something like this in place: http://i.imgur.com/rMpIAf1.jpg (untested, never produced)


Believe me, Exxos STE Booster would already be up and running in my STE if it was that easy. But unfortunately there are some STEs that have no CPU socket. And even better, the CPU is SMT. So no nice holes, where you can easyily solder in some pins and be happy, just some crappy pads... :( So me (and I guess some others) only chance is to solder in a socket and then have something plugged into that.
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
Shockwav3
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Shockwav3 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:56 pm

IngoQ wrote:
Shockwav3 wrote:Those plugin solutions are crap (sorry alanh) ... I have one by GEsoft and it's been the source for a lot of frustration.
Best solution would be to remove the original socket, and solder something like this in place: http://i.imgur.com/rMpIAf1.jpg (untested, never produced)


Believe me, Exxos STE Booster would already be up and running in my STE if it was that easy. But unfortunately there are some STEs that have no CPU socket. And even better, the CPU is SMT. So no nice holes, where you can easyily solder in some pins and be happy, just some crappy pads... :( So me (and I guess some others) only chance is to solder in a socket and then have something plugged into that.
Is the CPU in a PLCC or QFP package? If it's the first you could still go with a plugable solution ("just" plug a PLCC socket on top - which would still suck but would be your only solution [as seen on some Amiga 600 speeder cards]) if it's QFP you're ultimately out of luck ... 68 QFP pads don't have the structural integrity to hold an extra board (and would already be extremely painful to solder to).

Can I haz hardware?

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4101
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby joska » Wed May 24, 2017 3:06 pm

Shockwav3 wrote:If it's the first you could still go with a plugable solution ("just" plug a PLCC socket on top - which would still suck but


Why would that suck? The RAM-card in my A600 has been working flawlessly for years with this solution. If the card is secured properly then I see no downside in using a socket upside-down.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
Shockwav3
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Shockwav3 » Wed May 24, 2017 4:17 pm

joska wrote:
Shockwav3 wrote:If it's the first you could still go with a plugable solution ("just" plug a PLCC socket on top - which would still suck but


Why would that suck? The RAM-card in my A600 has been working flawlessly for years with this solution. If the card is secured properly then I see no downside in using a socket upside-down.
Lemme guess ... ACA620 or the like ... where secured properly means fixed with screws ... not so sure if that's an option on STE/MSTE.

Can I haz hardware?

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4101
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby joska » Wed May 24, 2017 5:49 pm

Shockwav3 wrote:Lemme guess ... ACA620 or the like ... where secured properly means fixed with screws ... not so sure if that's an option on STE/MSTE.


No, not ACA620. It's just a RAM-card. It is not fixed with screws, it only rests on some plastic supports that prevents it from rattling loose.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
Shockwav3
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Shockwav3 » Wed May 24, 2017 7:15 pm

Then it's not secured properly but instead handled carefully ;)
I've had my share with those "PLCC socket on soldered PLCC chip"-solutions previously (also on amiga) with chip -> ps/2 keyboard adapters. Never the less ... still a lot better than those "individual pins grabbing onto the outside of socket pins" found on Atari PLCC -> DIL adapters (like the one by GEsoft I have or the PuSTE for the PAK68/3 project). Best would be a PCB as the one I linked (but never finished ... maybe at some point) ideally with standoffs/mounts so one doesn't split the board in half when applying a bit of force when inserting/extracting anything to/from the DIL socket.

Anways, we're getting severly offtopic here.

Can I haz hardware?

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4101
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby joska » Wed May 24, 2017 8:06 pm

Shockwav3 wrote:Then it's not secured properly but instead handled carefully ;)


Sorry, I was not clear.

When the case is closed, the RAM card brackets are sandwiched between the motherboard and the keyboard. The card can not move. I'd say that's pretty secure.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

Faucon2001
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Brasil
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Faucon2001 » Wed May 24, 2017 9:51 pm

In order to avoid guessing, these are pictures of Alanh board :
Image
Image
It uses a male PLCC adapter, not crappy pins, and it's rock solid. The original 68k is moved on top and has plenty space to cool down. The 2 extra raws of pins risers on the 68k bus have been added by myself in order to rise the H&N multiboard which fits on top of STE ram. It's not the ideal layout and it would have been better to have the adapter oriented the opposite way (vertical symmetry), but it was not done for this purpose.
I just went thru an international move ( 1000 km by truck on very bad roads and 5000 km by boat, 4 loading and unloading), the board has not moved a millimeter, and to unplug it from the STE board I had to put a fair amount of pull.
It's by far the best solution and avoid to have to butcher the STE board for those who have a PLCC 68k.
Philippe

Firebee, Falcon, STE, Aranym Box, Hatari Pi Box.
My music http://www.philippeworld.net/
My photography http://phil-67.deviantart.com/
EasyAraMint, BeeKey and BeePi https://sites.google.com/site/emaappsarch/home

User avatar
Greenious
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:39 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Greenious » Thu May 25, 2017 10:30 am

Honestly, a new FPGA based graphics card is likely the best way forward. Perhaps based on MonSTer board and Natures Supervidel? With Exxos booster it's likely to not be too bad speedwise either.
Updated my guides as of june 28th, 2016. Check'em out and feedback!
viewtopic.php?t=5040

penguin
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:43 am

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby penguin » Thu May 25, 2017 11:44 am

leech wrote:I always kind of wondered why no one added even the TT resolutions to an STe. Actually what would also be nice (at least for us TT030/Mega STe owners) if there were an outright replacement for the VME bus adapter, something that could make them use more standard things, of course then drivers have to be written, etc. But at least something that could be built as an expansion on boosters for other systems as well.

The hard thing about any of these mods, is trying to keep the case from being cut up from all sorts of places to fit them all :P


It was done commercially with the ODIN graphics card which was an external solution and didn't require a Mega or VME bus: http://stcarchiv.de/stm1992/06/odin

Unfortunately it was very slow and there were multiple compatibility issues.
AtariUpToDate - Atari ST/TT/Falcon software database and version tracker: http://www.atariuptodate.de
st-computer magazine - http://st-computer.atariuptodate.de/

User avatar
IngoQ
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Brunswick - Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby IngoQ » Fri May 26, 2017 10:01 am

Shockwav3 wrote:Is the CPU in a PLCC or QFP package? If it's the first you could still go with a plugable solution ("just" plug a PLCC socket on top - which would still suck but would be your only solution [as seen on some Amiga 600 speeder cards]) if it's QFP you're ultimately out of luck ... 68 QFP pads don't have the structural integrity to hold an extra board (and would already be extremely painful to solder to).


ste_plcc.jpg


It's PLCC, if I'm not mistaken. Clipping a socket on top of it... never thought of that, thanks for the idea :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
IngoQ
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Brunswick - Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby IngoQ » Fri May 26, 2017 10:33 am

Thank you all for your input :)

So to sum things up:

  • The only currently available solution for higher resolutions and/or bitdepths would be using an ISA graphics adapter via an ISA-bridge.
  • ISA bridges are probably available in form of the VOFA-adapter (see here: http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29732 )
  • The VOFA uses the MegaST bus, but could probably be adapted, since the MegaBus in fact is the CPU-bus without additional logic
  • Or you could use the Panther/2, see here http://www.wrsonline.de/panther2.html and here http://atari.wroclaw.pl/index.html <-- not STE compatible
  • The Panther/2 plugs in the DIL-CPU socket, in case of the STE you would need some adaption from PLCC to DIL, like Alanh's board pictured above
  • Tested ISA graphics adapters would be Tseng ET4000, including AX, W32 and Mach32 versions
  • Drivers for Tseng ET4000 and derivatives are availabe in this project: https://silicon-heaven.org/atari/nova/
  • In case you STE has a PLCC CPU without socket, you could either remove the CPU and solder on a PLCC socket
  • Or you hack together something yourselves using an upside down PLCC socket on top of your CPU
  • You CAN cram everything in the standard case and afterwards call it TARDIS ;)
  • If someone was to develop a new graphics solution, it would most likely be FPGA based. If it was a replacement for the Shifter and therefore eliminate the need for two displays, it would be even more awesome.
Did I forget something?
Last edited by IngoQ on Fri May 26, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
Shockwav3
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Shockwav3 » Fri May 26, 2017 11:56 am

As said ... Panther/2 doesn't work in STE/MSTE machines - the adressdecoder gets detected incorrectly. Additional problem I'm currently facing: The Mach32/Mach64 drivers are only available as 030 versions (for using the Panther/2 alongside a PAK68/3)
But yes, that's a PLCC CPU in your machine.

Can I haz hardware?

User avatar
IngoQ
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Brunswick - Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby IngoQ » Fri May 26, 2017 12:27 pm

Shockwav3 wrote:As said ... Panther/2 doesn't work in STE/MSTE machines - the adressdecoder gets detected incorrectly.

My mistake, thanks :)

Shockwav3 wrote:Additional problem I'm currently facing: The Mach32/Mach64 drivers are only available as 030 versions (for using the Panther/2 alongside a PAK68/3)


And what about these? https://silicon-heaven.org/atari/nova/MegaSTE/Mach32/
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
frank.lukas
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1616
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby frank.lukas » Fri May 26, 2017 3:10 pm



The Mega STE and Atari TT stuff is all about the Nova VME Bus Adapter that is only MSTE/TT ...

The VOFA with Nova or NVDI ET4000/NVDI5 can work in a STE.
fancy Atari Musik anDA Dance "Agare Hinu Harukana" 1998 ATARI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX10fxb5eYE

User avatar
IngoQ
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Brunswick - Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby IngoQ » Sat May 27, 2017 8:38 am

frank.lukas wrote:The Mega STE and Atari TT stuff is all about the Nova VME Bus Adapter that is only MSTE/TT ...
The VOFA with Nova or NVDI ET4000/NVDI5 can work in a STE.


Ah, I see, so the VOFA (MegaBus) and the Nova (VME) need different drivers? So one driver family per bus, splitting up in drivers for each graphics chip/DAC-combination?
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
frank.lukas
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1616
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby frank.lukas » Sat May 27, 2017 10:05 am

All Graphic Card solutions have a different memory base address and I/O address base. So you need for each one a customize driver or a possibility to set this ...
fancy Atari Musik anDA Dance "Agare Hinu Harukana" 1998 ATARI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX10fxb5eYE

User avatar
Greenious
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:39 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Greenious » Sat May 27, 2017 10:37 am

I'd like to point out that a shifter replacement is rather unlikely. it would still be severely restricted due to the speed of the ram, mmu etc. and would possibly also break some compatibility, such as overscan not working etc.

I still think using existing solutions would be the way to go, Nature's supervidel for the CT60 could be adapted for the ST/STE more easily than most other solutions, it is an FPGA already designed with an Atari POV. It provides more than enough resolutions to make anyone happy. Obviously it's just an idea, and other aspects might make it impractical to make a 'one size to fit all' run of the supervidel, still, the basics are there, and it would be stupid not to look at building off that before coming up with a completely new solution/design. The ST/STE/TT/F030 market isn't big, and if it is possible to design something that can support all of them, it would not only help with manufacturing costs, it would also make driver improvements and the like easier to maintain across them all.
Updated my guides as of june 28th, 2016. Check'em out and feedback!
viewtopic.php?t=5040

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4101
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby joska » Sat May 27, 2017 10:56 am

Shockwav3 wrote:As said ... Panther/2 doesn't work in STE/MSTE machines - the adressdecoder gets detected incorrectly.


Have you tried this on *both* STE and MSTE? On the MSTE there will be an address conflict with the VME bus, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work on a plain STE.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
Shockwav3
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Shockwav3 » Sat May 27, 2017 1:13 pm

joska wrote:
Shockwav3 wrote:As said ... Panther/2 doesn't work in STE/MSTE machines - the adressdecoder gets detected incorrectly.


Have you tried this on *both* STE and MSTE? On the MSTE there will be an address conflict with the VME bus, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work on a plain STE.
Yup ... that confused me a bit as well, since I knew about the MSTE, but can't exactly see a reason why it would be an issue on the STE. Getting another STE soon-ish and will reconfirm.

Can I haz hardware?

User avatar
troed
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1421
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:20 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby troed » Sat May 27, 2017 1:46 pm

Greenious wrote:I'd like to point out that a shifter replacement is rather unlikely. it would still be severely restricted due to the speed of the ram, mmu etc. and would possibly also break some compatibility, such as overscan not working etc.


The Shifter is not really involved in overscan - that's the GLUE.

(More than that the DE-signal is respected, and to create black when mono is active if viewing on color)

User avatar
Greenious
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:39 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Greenious » Sat May 27, 2017 4:14 pm

troed wrote:
Greenious wrote:I'd like to point out that a shifter replacement is rather unlikely. it would still be severely restricted due to the speed of the ram, mmu etc. and would possibly also break some compatibility, such as overscan not working etc.


The Shifter is not really involved in overscan - that's the GLUE.

(More than that the DE-signal is respected, and to create black when mono is active if viewing on color)


Well, it was just an example of things that may go wrong, even though, as you point out, GLUE is the most important part of overscan.

Anyway, a straight shifter swap for something better to avoid having multiple screen outputs adds a multitude of other problems that won't make developing or installing it easier, and would not bring better resolutions unless a secondary videomemory was added, since the existing st-ram has limits to it's bandwidth etc. and if we start replacing MMU/GLUE to fix that, it's easier to build a new machine from scratch.

It's all about keeping expectations realistic. There are so much simpler solutions to bring higher resolution to ST/STE, with much less work involved developing and much less hassle installing, that a shifter replacement type of thing will just never happen imho.
Updated my guides as of june 28th, 2016. Check'em out and feedback!
viewtopic.php?t=5040

User avatar
Greenious
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:39 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby Greenious » Sat May 27, 2017 4:36 pm

IngoQ wrote:
Shockwav3 wrote:Those plugin solutions are crap (sorry alanh) ... I have one by GEsoft and it's been the source for a lot of frustration.
Best solution would be to remove the original socket, and solder something like this in place: http://i.imgur.com/rMpIAf1.jpg (untested, never produced)


Believe me, Exxos STE Booster would already be up and running in my STE if it was that easy. But unfortunately there are some STEs that have no CPU socket. And even better, the CPU is SMT. So no nice holes, where you can easyily solder in some pins and be happy, just some crappy pads... :( So me (and I guess some others) only chance is to solder in a socket and then have something plugged into that.


Isn't easier to find another STE with socketed CPU? Just a thought...
Updated my guides as of june 28th, 2016. Check'em out and feedback!
viewtopic.php?t=5040

User avatar
IngoQ
Atari nerd
Atari nerd
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Brunswick - Germany

Re: Solution for higher resolutions on STE?

Postby IngoQ » Sat May 27, 2017 7:23 pm

Greenious wrote:Isn't easier to find another STE with socketed CPU? Just a thought...


Of course. But who want's easy? ;) I like my STE, besides of the socket issue it's in perfect condition. No yellowing (or greening in this special case), quite clean and must have been rarely used. I'd say nearly mint condition, besides it's lacking its original package. And I even got to remove the seal ;)

And besides of that, it's a matter of space. As of now I have a C64, Atari 800XL, TI 99/4A, Amiga 1200 and my STE. Definitely must-have-additions to this collection will be the Amstrad CPC 6128, Sinclair Spectrum 128 ("toast rack" if I can find one not beeing ridiculously expensive), Acorn A3020 (same as before) and a nice MSX machine. Space is limited and I don't want them to be crammed in somewhere.

AND of course money is an issue as well ;) It's a hobby, and I'm not willing to throw out money, that is otherwise better used. Although I of course would have preferred a Falcon over a STE (who wouldn't?), I'm not willing to pay 500-1.000 EUR for one, extras on top.

And yes, I like my Ataris the most, I admit it ;)
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests