Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, Greenious, spiny, Moderator Team

User avatar
Fujiyama
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Norway

Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Fujiyama » Tue May 02, 2017 12:58 am

What kind of image quality can I expect from a modern LCD display (through a VGA adapter cable) compared to the original Atari hires mono monitors?

I do have an SM-144 which is very nice, but the screen size is a tad small and it's bulky (I would like to mount it on a VESA display mount for attaching to a synth-stand). I did have an NEC Multisync II back in the day and remember its hires mode wasn't very sharp at all. Very tiring on the eyes. Have things improved since then, or is this what you can expect when going to VGA instead of using a dedicated Atari monitor?
I see a lot of really cheap 19" or 20" LCD displays in the used ads though I haven't checked their specs to see if they can handle the ST high mode (71.2Hz vertical/35.7KHz horizontal).

Another thing is physical appearance -a cream/white display similar to the colour of Atari ST computers would be great. I came across this photo of an Atari TT with a (seemingly) unmarked monitor. Beautiful! And I could only dream of such a resolution with C-Lab/Emagic Notator. I believe the photo shows it running Cubase which obviously could run with extended graphic cards.
Does anyone recognize the monitor?
Image
Mega STe | MonSTer with dual IDE-CF memory card adapter | STe | SM-144 |NEC Multisync 1990SXi | IDE doubler | ST_ESSC | RSVE | ICD Link II | Link '97 | HD floppy drive/AJAX | HD floppy module | Minolta PCMCIA card-drive | Realtime Clock module | Discovery cartridge | Unitor-2 | Export | Combiner | Steady Eye | Human Touch | Unicorn USB

User avatar
Gaiyan
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Gaiyan » Tue May 02, 2017 3:37 am

That monitor in the picture is a NEC 1990SXi. I have one for my TT and it's awesome. It will do 1:1 pixel mapping (no scaling) if you want. Tons of settings.

This is exactly where I bought mine: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-MultiSync-1 ... SwUKxYh2Pp
No stand but I have an Ergotron dual monitor stand.

Every LCD will scale basic Atari ST resolutions so the results are not ideal. Best monitors that also handle 15khz are BenQ BL702A and Dell 2001FP/2007FP.
Image

Kubik
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Kubik » Tue May 02, 2017 11:44 am

I'm using FSC P19-2, and as far as I can tell, the picture is OK. It's also reasonably good for old MACs (LC and alike).
I didn't test it with 15kHz (yet), but I'd like to, one day :)
That monitor was pretty good and expensive (400-500 EUR in 2005). My wife still uses it for regular work (I've got three of them total, all recapped already).

Edit: I believe this picture was taken with that monitor:
st_4MB.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

nobox
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:42 pm

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby nobox » Tue May 02, 2017 12:02 pm

The interpolation behavior of the Fujitsu Siemens P19-2 can not be set in the OSD. Resolutions smaller than the native resolution of 1280 x 1024 are always scaled up to full screen. Thats bad for TT High.

Kubik
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Kubik » Tue May 02, 2017 9:23 pm

That's right. I don't have any system able to produce 1280x960 so I have no idea how exactly this monitor would behave. However, the original question was about ST, not TT, so I expected we are talking about ST high, not TT high.
For Mac 800x600, the monitor is also okay. While playing with it right now, I have discovered one option (sharpness) that changes the dithering algorithm parameters, allowing to select either sharper or blurier image.

User avatar
troed
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1217
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:20 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby troed » Wed May 03, 2017 10:14 am

ST High Res on a Dell 2001FP does indeed produce a lot of "scaled/grey/thin/fat" pixels.

I notice them when looking for them. Not otherwise.

/Troed

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby calimero » Wed May 03, 2017 10:51 am

Kubik wrote:I'm using FSC P19-2, and as far as I can tell, the picture is OK. It's also reasonably good for old MACs (LC and alike).

How did you connect Mac LC (I have LC 2) to VGA monitor?
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

dbsys
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:11 am
Location: Germany

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby dbsys » Wed May 03, 2017 3:33 pm

Fujiyama wrote:What kind of image quality can I expect from a modern LCD display (through a VGA adapter cable) compared to the original Atari hires mono monitors?

I do have an SM-144 which is very nice, but the screen size is a tad small and it's bulky (I would like to mount it on a VESA display mount for attaching to a synth-stand). I did have an NEC Multisync II back in the day and remember its hires mode wasn't very sharp at all. Very tiring on the eyes. Have things improved since then, or is this what you can expect when going to VGA instead of using a dedicated Atari monitor?
I see a lot of really cheap 19" or 20" LCD displays in the used ads though I haven't checked their specs to see if they can handle the ST high mode (71.2Hz vertical/35.7KHz horizontal).

Another thing is physical appearance -a cream/white display similar to the colour of Atari ST computers would be great. I came across this photo of an Atari TT with a (seemingly) unmarked monitor. Beautiful! And I could only dream of such a resolution with C-Lab/Emagic Notator. I believe the photo shows it running Cubase which obviously could run with extended graphic cards.
Does anyone recognize the monitor?
Image



You also may want to read this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25661

Kubik
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Kubik » Wed May 03, 2017 8:27 pm

calimero wrote:
Kubik wrote:I'm using FSC P19-2, and as far as I can tell, the picture is OK. It's also reasonably good for old MACs (LC and alike).

How did you connect Mac LC (I have LC 2) to VGA monitor?

You can either build one: http://pinouts.ru/forum/index.php?topic=4982.0 or buy it. I've seen them on Amazon and eBay, simple ones around 10 USD, or configurable with DIP switches around 20-40 USD. If you have soldering iron, building one takes about half an hour and costs just a few pennies :)
I am using it with LC and Performa 475, but it should work with any Mac.

User avatar
Fujiyama
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Norway

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Fujiyama » Wed May 03, 2017 9:14 pm

Sorry, I failed to say I was looking for something which will work specifically with the ST hires mode.

Gaiyan: you said the NEC 1990SXi does 1:1 pixel mapping.
Does this mean its resolution matches one the computer's resolution whereas it otherwise would have to stretch/squeeze the display output in order to show all those pixels and thereby decrease the image quality in the process? Were you referring to the TT screen modes, or is this a great monitor for use with the ST as well?

Other monitors were also mentioned in this thread: will any of them display the ST hires mode well? Equally well or similarly to what the SM-124, 125 or 144 can? (that's the ones I've personally used and as far as I can remember I think the 124/125 models were a little sharper than the 144).
If the result is anything like what I got from the NEC Multisync II several years ago it's really nothing to write home about and puts a great strain on the eyes. It really was more suitable for the low/medium colour modes and the occasional hires mono needs -not the other way round.
Mega STe | MonSTer with dual IDE-CF memory card adapter | STe | SM-144 |NEC Multisync 1990SXi | IDE doubler | ST_ESSC | RSVE | ICD Link II | Link '97 | HD floppy drive/AJAX | HD floppy module | Minolta PCMCIA card-drive | Realtime Clock module | Discovery cartridge | Unitor-2 | Export | Combiner | Steady Eye | Human Touch | Unicorn USB

User avatar
Greenious
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:39 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Greenious » Wed May 03, 2017 10:54 pm

I remembered seeing a list of good flat panel displays in the wiki, but now it's empty?
Updated my guides as of june 28th, 2016. Check'em out and feedback!
viewtopic.php?t=5040

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12000
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby wongck » Wed May 03, 2017 10:59 pm

Greenious wrote:I remembered seeing a list of good flat panel displays in the wiki, but now it's empty?


Wiki been down for a while now. viewtopic.php?f=29&t=31225
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

User avatar
Greenious
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:39 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Greenious » Wed May 03, 2017 11:13 pm

Updated my guides as of june 28th, 2016. Check'em out and feedback!
viewtopic.php?t=5040

Faucon2001
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Brasil
Contact:

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Faucon2001 » Thu May 04, 2017 1:30 am

In order to have the best image quality you first need a monitor which has a native resolution proportional by an integer factor with ST/STE resolution (at least the horizontal resolution).
So 640x400 will work good on 640x480, 1280x800, 1280x1024 and 1920x1200 monitors as the scaling factor will be 1,2 or 3x.
If your resolution is different from that, let's say 1024x768 or 1920x1080, the scaling factor will be 1.6x or 2,7, every ST pixels won't be aligned with the LCD matrix, the image will be fuzzy (up to hugly) and you will alwaus have a strong moiré with 50% grey.
Second parameter, is that you monitor must accept 72hz and that you can adjust vertical and horizontal position ; most LCD accept it.
Third parameter is the quality of the monitor scaler ; as a rule of thumb NEC, HP, SAMSUNG should give better results than a no name brand
Finally, your ST/STE need to be in good condition (stable power supply) with a good video cable to be able to supply a clean and strong analog video signal for the monitor to scale it properly.

1280x800 is by far the best option as it is exactly the same aspect ratio as the ST, generaly of a reasonable size, but they are very rare (mainly laptop LCD). 1920x1200 has also the same aspect ratio, but these monitors are way too big to be really usefull (a ST on a 24" monitor is a weird experience).
1280x1024 in 17 or 19" is definitely the way to go, you will have some black bars above and below the picture but the image will be crispy and of a reasonable size. You can find on eBay used models from NEC, HP or SAMSUNG quite cheap with a good quality scaling.
Now being said that, the image won't never be as perfect as on a SM124, first because LCD monitors are much bigger and because the analog conversion to digital is never perfect ; so may have have a little moiré or horizontal banding.

If you want to go a step further, i.e be able to use low/mid and Hi Res on the same monitor, I will strongly recommend to buy a NEC 1970 NXp with a multisync cable (you can do the cable yourself as it is not too complicated or find some already made on the net).
Example of what you can acheive on this monitor (real image is much better, digital cameras always have problem went shooting a matrix)
Image
Philippe

Firebee, Falcon, STE, Aranym Box, Hatari Pi Box.
My music http://www.philippeworld.net/
My photography http://phil-67.deviantart.com/
EasyAraMint, BeeKey and BeePi https://sites.google.com/site/emaappsarch/home

User avatar
Gaiyan
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Gaiyan » Thu May 04, 2017 3:27 am

Fujiyama wrote:Sorry, I failed to say I was looking for something which will work specifically with the ST hires mode.

Gaiyan: you said the NEC 1990SXi does 1:1 pixel mapping.
Does this mean its resolution matches one the computer's resolution whereas it otherwise would have to stretch/squeeze the display output in order to show all those pixels and thereby decrease the image quality in the process? Were you referring to the TT screen modes, or is this a great monitor for use with the ST as well?

Other monitors were also mentioned in this thread: will any of them display the ST hires mode well? Equally well or similarly to what the SM-124, 125 or 144 can? (that's the ones I've personally used and as far as I can remember I think the 124/125 models were a little sharper than the 144).
If the result is anything like what I got from the NEC Multisync II several years ago it's really nothing to write home about and puts a great strain on the eyes. It really was more suitable for the low/medium colour modes and the occasional hires mono needs -not the other way round.


Yes, you can choose to show the unscaled picture. Obviously it will be a very small picture. What Philippe said is very true.
Image

User avatar
Fujiyama
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Norway

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Fujiyama » Thu May 04, 2017 5:51 am

Thanks for that clear explanation, Faucon2001!
I've found various cheap brand name LCD monitors for sale on the used market. Nowadays nobody cares about the "small" 19-20 inch monitors, which is great news for us :wink:
So far I've found an NEC 1980sx (19"), NEC Accusync LCD 92vm (19") and NEC Multisync LCD2070nx (20"). I need to look into their specs though.
Fortunately the Atari Wiki will be up soon and I'll be able to check that list to see what others have tested.

PS. the picture of the display looks good! My NEC Multisync II was very fuzzy and unclear in hires mono mode, so there must definitely have been an improvement since the 90's in this area (no surprise) :wink:
Mega STe | MonSTer with dual IDE-CF memory card adapter | STe | SM-144 |NEC Multisync 1990SXi | IDE doubler | ST_ESSC | RSVE | ICD Link II | Link '97 | HD floppy drive/AJAX | HD floppy module | Minolta PCMCIA card-drive | Realtime Clock module | Discovery cartridge | Unitor-2 | Export | Combiner | Steady Eye | Human Touch | Unicorn USB

Faucon2001
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Brasil
Contact:

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Faucon2001 » Thu May 04, 2017 11:04 am

NEC multsync II was a CRT monitor and should give a clean image. That was the monitor Roll Royce at that time ;-)
In your case or your ST had a weak video signal or a bad cable (generally you'll see ringing or ghost image), or more likely your monitor was in bad shape (burnt phosphorus screen layer or unfocused electron beam). The two last points are very common on old used CRT monitor and though the first one means "put it into the trash can", the second one can be adjusted by a specialist CRT technician (if there is still one alive today ;-)
For the wiki link have a look at Greenious post above. It works.
Philippe

Firebee, Falcon, STE, Aranym Box, Hatari Pi Box.
My music http://www.philippeworld.net/
My photography http://phil-67.deviantart.com/
EasyAraMint, BeeKey and BeePi https://sites.google.com/site/emaappsarch/home

User avatar
Fujiyama
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Norway

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Fujiyama » Tue May 09, 2017 11:51 pm

Yes, it could very well be that it was in bad shape. I sold it years ago so I have no means to check or remember the details other than it being bad in the eyes in hires mono mode. I already had an SM-124, but wanted to check out the colour modes, so I grabbed the Multisync II when I came across it in a used ad.
It could very well be a bad cable as well, and I don't know anything about the state of the video signal -you mentioned a good power supply. I'll be replacing my MegaSTe power supply anyway, as I'm recasing it, so getting a good one should take care of the possibly needed recapping.

I looked up the specs of the NEC Multisync LCD1980sx (19" screensize) which I can get used for pocket change, and its native resolution is 1280x1024 as you suggested as something suitable for the ST hires mono mode (640x400). It's within the H/V sync ranges of the hires mode as well and has H/V size and position controls (on-screen adjustment). I suppose it uses a CCFL backlight (which in many monitors is impossible to change without damaging the screen itself because you have to open it) but you can't get everything..... :wink: And it's got a creamy/white frame :)
Has anyone tried it (it's not in the Atari wiki) -a good choice for getting a sharp hires image?
Mega STe | MonSTer with dual IDE-CF memory card adapter | STe | SM-144 |NEC Multisync 1990SXi | IDE doubler | ST_ESSC | RSVE | ICD Link II | Link '97 | HD floppy drive/AJAX | HD floppy module | Minolta PCMCIA card-drive | Realtime Clock module | Discovery cartridge | Unitor-2 | Export | Combiner | Steady Eye | Human Touch | Unicorn USB

User avatar
Fujiyama
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Norway

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Fujiyama » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:05 am

I must have won the lottery!
I came across a used ad for an office selling out all their old "small" screen displays which included several NEC 1990sxi monitors, so I bought one based on what I had read here, made a hires VGA cable and hooked it up. It even came with a "sound bar" stereo speaker system which is nice and practical.
Sorry about the sub-par image quality taken with a compact camera, but here's a few snapshots of the very first tryout with my STe and the settings I experimented with in order to get a satisfactory image (note: the moire is due to the camera sensor, it's not present when viewing the monitor).

20170613-123641_IMG_3928.jpg
20170613-123630_IMG_3927.jpg
20170613-124211_IMG_3931.jpg
20170613-124347_IMG_3934.jpg
20170613-124311_IMG_3933.jpg
20170613-124425_IMG_3935.jpg
20170613-124447_IMG_3936.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Mega STe | MonSTer with dual IDE-CF memory card adapter | STe | SM-144 |NEC Multisync 1990SXi | IDE doubler | ST_ESSC | RSVE | ICD Link II | Link '97 | HD floppy drive/AJAX | HD floppy module | Minolta PCMCIA card-drive | Realtime Clock module | Discovery cartridge | Unitor-2 | Export | Combiner | Steady Eye | Human Touch | Unicorn USB

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby calimero » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:56 pm

Did you try color resolutions?
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

User avatar
Fujiyama
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Norway

Re: Flatscreen monitors similar to Atari hi-res monitors?

Postby Fujiyama » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:38 pm

No, it won't go as low as 15.75 KHz (horizontal), only 31.5, so I gave that up and instead made a normal cable for just ST high mode (640x400, 35.7 KHz horizontal/71.2 Hz vertical).

The display looks very good (at least after spending some time adjusting it). Definitely a lot better than what I got out of the Multisync II monitor in hires mode! If I set "Expansion" (the zoom mode) to "Aspect" I believe I got the aspect ratio right, but if I choose "Off" I seem to get the actual 640x400 pixels which gives a tiny screen in the middle of the display. Razor sharp image, but of course much too small!
Does anyone know if I can get something in-between the two? In other words, the same aspect ratio, but not filling the entire screen width.
Mega STe | MonSTer with dual IDE-CF memory card adapter | STe | SM-144 |NEC Multisync 1990SXi | IDE doubler | ST_ESSC | RSVE | ICD Link II | Link '97 | HD floppy drive/AJAX | HD floppy module | Minolta PCMCIA card-drive | Realtime Clock module | Discovery cartridge | Unitor-2 | Export | Combiner | Steady Eye | Human Touch | Unicorn USB


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests