RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

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RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:42 pm

Can a DS1338 realtime clock module be used with a MegaSTe MonSTer, or will it conflict with its built-in clock?
I'm asking mainly because the small CR-2032 on-board backup battery is more handy for recasing the MegaSTe and is cheaper to replace than the MegaSTe clock battery.

How about the Y2K issues? -is that a TOS related thing which is resolved by software in the AUTO folder, or something related to the actual clock hardware? I read about the Dallas RTC 1.0 software (scroll down the page to "How -Troed") which apparently handles the correct dates up to year 2030, so does this handle any Y2K issues with the DS1338 clock module too?
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby joska » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:38 pm

It will not conflict.

TOS needs a Y2K-fix. There are some auto-folder fixes, but you can also patch TOS before flashing it to the MonSTEr flash-ROM.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:27 am

Thanks Joska.
I'll probably order one, but will any of the RTC modules work as long as they're 3.3V and have SDA and SCL outputs or does it have to be a DS1338?
There's the DS1307 module, DS3231 AT24C32 Arduino module, DS1307 AT24C32 module for AVR ARM PIC T and probably a couple of others as well.

Is there any "How-to" documentation on how to patch TOS before flashing it onto the MonSTer? I'm sure that would be a more elegant way than having all sorts of fixes and patches in the AUTO folder.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby joska » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:33 am

The next version of the MonSTer flash tool can Y2K-patch TOS (and also apply a couple of other patches). I really need to get this ready for release soon...

RTC: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RTC-I2C-Module-w-24C32-Memory-DS1307-Clock-Works-w-Official-Arduino-Products-/332138581218?hash=item4d55008ce2:g:Gx8AAOSwsW9YxfzA
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby alanh » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:34 am

The DS1307 works fine too, it's compatible with the DS1338, but the DS1307 is 5V only so you'd need to pick up 5V from somewhere else.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:53 am

Yes, +5 should be available a number of places inside the computer.

I've read that the cheap eBay RTC modules don't keep time very well (a drift of several minutes a month isn't uncommon) while the more expensive DS323x based ones are much more accurate (may drift only a couple of seconds per year), but (with a few exceptions) cost more. I've found a few (but don't know if they're compatible with the DS1338/DS1307):


Will any of these (more accurate) RTC modules work with the MonSTer?
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby czietz » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:11 pm

Side note: I've decided not to bother with RTC modules anymore when for the same amount of money (less than 5 USD) I can have a WiFi module that allows me to sync my ST's clock with an NTP server on the Internet. No more worries about drifting RTCs, empty batteries etc.

Currently my project is only documented in German and also in the software on the Atari side CET and CEST time zones are hardcoded. So it's not as universal as it could be. However, maybe as an idea to you...

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby wyerd » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:34 pm

czietz wrote:Side note: I've decided not to bother with RTC modules anymore when for the same amount of money (less than 5 USD) I can have a WiFi module that allows me to sync my ST's clock with an NTP server on the Internet. No more worries about drifting RTCs, empty batteries etc.

Currently my project is only documented in German and also in the software on the Atari side CET and CEST time zones are hardcoded. So it's not as universal as it could be. However, maybe as an idea to you...


Sounds interesting! I have a Netusbee. Do you mind sharing your code as I'd like to do the same with the Netusbee?

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby czietz » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:55 pm

wyerd wrote:Sounds interesting! I have a Netusbee. Do you mind sharing your code as I'd like to do the same with the Netusbee?


All of the NTP (or rather SNTP) is handled on the WiFi module (ESP8266-based) and I didn't code that myself. I already get a timestamp in seconds and "only" have to convert it to local time and apply daylight savings time if needed. I could share that snippet of C code but I'm not sure if it's that interesting.

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:50 pm

Indeed interesting!
Where can we see the (German) documentation for this project?

For my use however a regular RTC module will do.
Does anyone know if a DS322x based module is compatible with one using a DS1338? Both datasheets refer to the I2C protocol, so as long as the RTC module provides SCL and SDA I suppose I can use one of those instead of a DS1338/DS1307 based module, right? :?:
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby czietz » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:02 pm

Fujiyama wrote:Indeed interesting!
Where can we see the (German) documentation for this project?


Schematic, firmware, software, API documentation: http://www.chzsoft.de/site/hardware/div ... it-esp8266

Fujiyama wrote:For my use however a regular RTC module will do.
Does anyone know if a DS322x based module is compatible with one using a DS1338? Both datasheets refer to the I2C protocol, so as long as the RTC module provides SCL and SDA I suppose I can use one of those instead of a DS1338/DS1307 based module, right? :?:


The modules with DS3234 will definitely not work, because this is the SPI (and not I2C) version of the chip. As for the other DS323x variants, I'll leave the answer to someone actually using a MonSTer. The register map is slightly different than that of the DS1338, I don't know if the MonSTer software handles this.

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:37 am

Does anyone know?
That 3231 RTC module seems nice and cheap (US$ 1.48). I have no idea how they can sell them so cheaply on eBay (and other Chinese sites) when they cost 10x that much on other sites.
EDIT: I didn't take into account that these are likely modules with fake, low-spec RTC chips (I checked the prices with a reputable electronics component online dealer and the chips alone cost between approx US$ 7 and 10!). Some forum discussions warn against buying them, saying they keep the time worse than even a DS1307.

Datasheets for the DS3231 (Maxim DS3231 datasheet) and DS3232 (Maxim DS3232 datasheet) both say they use the serial bidirectional I²C bus

Nice documentation for that NTP based clock, czletz. Also a lot of other useful hardware information there!
Last edited by Fujiyama on Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:02 pm

<bump> :wink:
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby vattari » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:59 am

I purchased one of these DS3231 RTC modules, and found this forum post while looking for the Y2K solution.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162322956611?rmvSB=true

It's early days (I only received the RTC today and installed it in my STE's Monster board) but so far so good.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:01 am

Cool!
Please keep us updated on how accurate it is over time.

Also, how did you phsyically mount it inside your STe so it doesn't rattle around inside there?
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby spiny » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:23 am

I used a DS1338 with my Monster board OK, but I did need to add two resistors, in order for it to read the time correctly:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27627&hilit=rtc+dallas+monster&start=450#p307565

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby joska » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:01 pm

joska wrote:TOS needs a Y2K-fix. There are some auto-folder fixes, but you can also patch TOS before flashing it to the MonSTEr flash-ROM.


This is not correct. You don't need a Y2K-fix on ST's with original RTC (Mega, Mega STE, Stacy). The Y2K-fix is only needed on plain ST's and STE's which use the keyboard processor's clock.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:57 am

spiny wrote:I used a DS1338 with my Monster board OK, but I did need to add two resistors, in order for it to read the time correctly:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27627&hilit=rtc+dallas+monster&start=450#p307565


I bought a cheapo eBay (probably fake, but OK for testing) Chronodot 2, based on the DS3231 which I haven't tried out with the MonSTer yet. The wiring info is in the MonSTer thread somewhere, isn't it?
Please tell more about those resistors -values and where you connected them?
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby Fujiyama » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:14 pm

joska wrote:
joska wrote:TOS needs a Y2K-fix. There are some auto-folder fixes, but you can also patch TOS before flashing it to the MonSTEr flash-ROM.


This is not correct. You don't need a Y2K-fix on ST's with original RTC (Mega, Mega STE, Stacy). The Y2K-fix is only needed on plain ST's and STE's which use the keyboard processor's clock.


Does the need for the Y2K fix or not apply for all sorts of clocks in a plain ST/STe (internal clock boards, RTC modules attached to the MonSTer, clock cartridges etc.)?
I guess I'm wondering how the computer knows if it should use the keyboard processor or whatever else the Mega STe/STacy/Mega ST uses?

In my STe I have a small board that plugs into one of the TOS ROM sockets and the EPROM goes on top of that.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby spiny » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:35 pm

Fujiyama wrote:
spiny wrote:I used a DS1338 with my Monster board OK, but I did need to add two resistors, in order for it to read the time correctly:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27627&hilit=rtc+dallas+monster&start=450#p307565


I bought a cheapo eBay (probably fake, but OK for testing) Chronodot 2, based on the DS3231 which I haven't tried out with the MonSTer yet. The wiring info is in the MonSTer thread somewhere, isn't it?
Please tell more about those resistors -values and where you connected them?


the info is in the thread I linked to.

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby GokMasE » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:03 pm

spiny wrote:I used a DS1338 with my Monster board OK, but I did need to add two resistors, in order for it to read the time correctly:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27627&hilit=rtc+dallas+monster&start=450#p307565


It seems the RTC I got off Ebay is identical to the DS1338 on your picture. Seeing the discussion regarding accuracy of these cards I am of course curious how yours turned out.
Does it seem to keep time fairly well or does it wander off time quickly?

Regards,

/Joakim

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby joska » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:48 pm

Fujiyama wrote:Does the need for the Y2K fix or not apply for all sorts of clocks in a plain ST/STe (internal clock boards, RTC modules attached to the MonSTer, clock cartridges etc.)?


The Y2K-fix applies to all ST's that does not have the Mega/MegaSTE/Stacy RTC. However, if you use a third party RTC and some autofolder utility to update GEMDOS time from this, TOS 1 usually does not need to be patched (depending on how the RTC software works). In this case only TOS 2.x is affected on these machines.

Fujiyama wrote:I guess I'm wondering how the computer knows if it should use the keyboard processor or whatever else the Mega STe/STacy/Mega ST uses?


TOS from 1.02 and upwards will attempt to access the Mega/MegaSTE/Stacy RTC when booting. If the RTC responds, TOS will read the RTC and update the GEMDOS internal clock (a pure software clock running off the 200Hz timer interrupt) with the RTC time/date. From then on GEMDOS will only refer to this software clock, not the RTC.

If the RTC does not respond TOS reads the time/date from the keyboard processor and sets the GEMDOS time to this. A warm reset does not reset the keyboard clock so you don't have to set the time/date after a warm reset.

The original Atari RTC (or keyboard clock if no RTC is present) is only accessed by TOS in these cases:

1. When booting the GEMDOS clock is updated with RTC time/date.
2. When the XBIOS Settime/Setdate functions are called. These are the interface to the RTC hardware, used to change RTC time/date.
3. In TOS 2 the RTC will be updated also when the GEMDOS time/date is changed using the GEMDOS Tsettime/Tsetdate calls. TOS then reads back the time from the RTC and updates it's internal GEMDOS clock according to this. This does not happen in TOS 1.

(3) is important, and the reason why TOS 2 needs to be patched when using an aftermarket RTC. The RTC software reads time/date from this custom RTC, and sets GEMDOS time accordingly using Tsettime/Tsetdate. Because there is no stock RTC, TOS falls back to the keyboard clock and when reading back the year the year is wrong. On a Mega/MegaSTE this is not a problem, because the keyboard clock is never used by TOS in this case.

So why is the keyboard clock year wrong? Because GEMDOS year 0 is actually 1980, while keyboard clock year is the last two digits of the actual year. So GEMDOS year 10 is displayed as 1990, and inside the keyboard clock it's stored as 90. This means that when TOS updates the keyboard clock, it actually writes GEMDOS year + 80, and when reading keyboard clock it reads keyboard year - 80.

Now, this is no problem when year is between 1980 and 1999. But try to do this math with a year after 2000, and you'll see that this does not add up :)

It is not a problem with the original RTC, because RTC year 0 is also 1980 so no conversion is needed between RTC and GEMDOS time.

So to sum up this rather confusing post - when using a MonSTer RTC and the M_RTC.PRG utility the Y2K fix is only needed on machines with TOS 2 and no original Atari RTC. I don't know if MagiC is affected. EmuTOS is not.
Last edited by joska on Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby spiny » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:05 am

GokMasE wrote:
spiny wrote:I used a DS1338 with my Monster board OK, but I did need to add two resistors, in order for it to read the time correctly:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27627&hilit=rtc+dallas+monster&start=450#p307565


It seems the RTC I got off Ebay is identical to the DS1338 on your picture. Seeing the discussion regarding accuracy of these cards I am of course curious how yours turned out.
Does it seem to keep time fairly well or does it wander off time quickly?

Regards,

/Joakim



it's pretty good, i'd say it's just as accurate as any other. it maybe wanders a minute over the course of a month, but it's easy to set. It's unfair to compare it to a PC etc, as they sync their time multiple times a day so rarely wander :)

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby spiny » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:05 am

If I remember, I'll take some pics if it actually fitted later on this evening.

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Re: RTC module for MegaSTe MonSTer

Postby GokMasE » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:26 pm

spiny wrote:If I remember, I'll take some pics if it actually fitted later on this evening.


Please do, that would certainly be of interest :-)


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