Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:53 pm

exxos wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:Will those be the electrolytic model or the ceramic one ?


Don't get what you mean ? For the falcon there are lots of caps, I haven't looked what options there are for the values yet.


For the ST and STE, will you make a version using electrolytic caps, or ceramic caps ?
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby exxos » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:23 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
For the ST and STE, will you make a version using electrolytic caps, or ceramic caps ?


The board I stated in the first post, will replace all the 4,700 caps in any ST, STE,MEGA, Falcon etc. Producing that value in ceramics isn't realistic.
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby willy » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:01 pm

Please.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

It sounds like computer version of AudioVooDoo. Caps made in 80's & 90's still have better parameters than new ones.
If you REALLY !!! want to replace caps why dont use a one that doesn't look wired??
ANy of them will do its job:

http://www.mouser.co.uk/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitors/Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitors-Leaded/_/N-75hqw?P=1z0wqt9Z1z0wm3eZ1z0wqe6Z1z0wqrzZ1z0wo33Z1z0wqqjZ1z0wqrwZ1z0wkdqZ1z0wqryZ1z0wo62Z1z0wqtnZ1z0z819Z1yx4aw3Z1yqjoa3Z1yx4awyZ1yzm175Z1yx4atvZ1ypb2ikZ1yx4avvZ1yrlnnyZ1z0x1fnZ1z0x1eyZ1z0x2njZ1yzvfmvZ1yzvfooZ1z0x1foZ1z0j22eZ1z0x1ejZ1z0vsuwZ1yzxdxi&Ns=Pricing|0

This one is my favorite: http://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/K ... vtEA%3d%3d

(price/parameters)

Role of this cap is not to be a Energy Storage in Switching power supply, and LOW ESR is not the most important parameter. The rated current is in fact 'ripple current' ... and is relevant only to switching power supplies.

So. Please do not make any retro voodoo and use NORMAL caps. Of course if you REALLY need to replace them ... i don't think so.

W.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby Maeke » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:24 pm

You seem to not know about all the bad caps found these days in the old psu, and on the motherboards the issue start to show too. And it is a bulk capacitor, meaning it's role is important in powering the computer.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby exxos » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:22 pm

willy wrote:
It sounds like computer version of AudioVooDoo. Caps made in 80's & 90's still have better parameters than new ones.
If you REALLY !!! want to replace caps why dont use a one that doesn't look wired??

W.


*sigh* So capacitor technology obviously hasn't improved any in the last 20 years. Please refrain from posting gibberish.
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby exxos » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:34 pm

Maeke wrote:You seem to not know about all the bad caps found these days in the old psu, and on the motherboards the issue start to show too. And it is a bulk capacitor, meaning it's role is important in powering the computer.


People wanted this solution, I did not force it on anyone. Then I get shot down by Willy for creating something new. Honestly I am tired of all the attacks and insults thrown at me on this forum.
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby wieczor » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:51 pm

I think capacitors should be replaces when they NEED to be replaced. And that what willy means I think :)

And talking about "capacitor technology obviously hasn't improved any in the last 20 years" - usually not, as electrolitic capacitors are still same technology. Just production quality is worse, as many other things - floppies, boards soldering etc. Check in next 30 years if you'll find any working playstation - and compare with computers from 80's :)

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby Maeke » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:40 am

Of course, exxos don't force anyone to change the capacitors, he proposes a solution for those who think theyrs has gone bad, nothing more.
And indead, as the quality has gone worse he proposes to use better quality componants.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dlfrsilver » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:47 pm

wieczor wrote:I think capacitors should be replaces when they NEED to be replaced. And that what willy means I think :)

And talking about "capacitor technology obviously hasn't improved any in the last 20 years" - usually not, as electrolitic capacitors are still same technology. Just production quality is worse, as many other things - floppies, boards soldering etc. Check in next 30 years if you'll find any working playstation - and compare with computers from 80's :)


Please support Chris, he is doing research, tests, for the Atari hardware, and is proposing interesting and good (if not better) solutions for replacements and new hardware.

Capacitors replacement is not an option, that's something that has to be done !

Chris role is important, if he should pull the plug, we would all be annoyed. Willy basically just don't know jack about capacitors. All the machines i have recapped to this day work better than before. All of them.

Of course Nichicon and Rubycon, panasonic brands have done some enhancements over the years. the actual capacitors from those brands are very good.

So : story short, those who have ST/STE/Falcon machines, support Chris, buy cap kits for your machines if it's not already done ! :D
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby Maeke » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:02 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
wieczor wrote:I think capacitors should be replaces when they NEED to be replaced. And that what willy means I think :)

And talking about "capacitor technology obviously hasn't improved any in the last 20 years" - usually not, as electrolitic capacitors are still same technology. Just production quality is worse, as many other things - floppies, boards soldering etc. Check in next 30 years if you'll find any working playstation - and compare with computers from 80's :)


Please support Chris, he is doing research, tests, for the Atari hardware, and is proposing interesting and good (if not better) solutions for replacements and new hardware.

Capacitors replacement is not an option, that's something that has to be done !

Chris role is important, if he should pull the plug, we would all be annoyed. Willy basically just don't know jack about capacitors. All the machines i have recapped to this day work better than before. All of them.

Of course Nichicon and Rubycon, panasonic brands have done some enhancements over the years. the actual capacitors from those brands are very good.

So : story short, those who have ST/STE/Falcon machines, support Chris, buy cap kits for your machines if it's not already done ! :D


Some needs to feal the pain to trust you when you said they will be slapped.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby nukebloodaxe » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:31 am

One thing that people tend to overlook with capacitors is that they eventually dry out... then the magic smoke comes out unexpectedly ;) They also have a run-time and shelf-life, so given that the caps we are looking at were effectively fresh between the mid 80's to early 90's, we are looking at a rough deployment time of 25 to 30 years. This is definitely outside of a capacitor's nominal operating lifespan.

So, if we take those dodgy caps which are certainly not operating optimally, and replace them with modern less noisy versions, then the overall stability of the machine concerned can be increased. Noise is a massive problem in Atari machines, and always was, so anything that improves the matter is highly welcome.

The solution Chris has here is really nice and is much simpler to maintain over a longer period of time. So, willy, I'll point out that it is currently broke, and definitely needs fixing; if not for fixing the screen dimming during floppy access problem alone. With further development, there will be other large capacitors that can be replaced with low-profile versions, and there is the added bonus of possibly using cermics at a future date.

So, Willy, if that still sounds like Voodoo to you, then I highly recommend reading some electronics introduction books. There is also a really good deal for the next two days on some Make books via a Humble bundle as well: https://www.humblebundle.com/books/make-arduino-and-raspberry-pi I found those particular deals to be quite interesting, and the make bundles have periodically had various electronics encyclopedias which are a very informative read.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby Maeke » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:09 am

just remember one thing, the lifespan of those capacitors is long gone.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dlfrsilver » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:03 pm

Maeke wrote:just remember one thing, the lifespan of those capacitors is long gone.


Exactly. the machines must be serviced in order to be safe and in working order :)
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby Maeke » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:51 pm

As i said, some won't see the incoming disaster until it is too late.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dlfrsilver » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:21 pm

Maeke wrote:As i said, some won't see the incoming disaster until it is too late.


You can't unfortunately force anybody to think that "the capacitors on my motherboard looks so pure and poo free".

Just to see once disoldered that they have leaked in their pants :lol:

I try to convince as many people as possible about this potential problem, some are still saying "don't need to".
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dhedberg » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:49 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:You can't unfortunately force anybody to think that "the capacitors on my motherboard looks so pure and poo free".
Just to see once disoldered that they have leaked in their pants :lol:
I try to convince as many people as possible about this potential problem, some are still saying "don't need to".

I replaced all the electrolytic capacitors in one of my Falcons. I measured the old ones after taking them out and to be honest, most of them (27) showed great values, while 2 of them had about 50% and 40% of their specified capacitance respectively. None of them had started leaking. I know this doesn't say much, but seems like Atari used fairly high quality capacitors in the Falcon. I've not heard about any cases of leaking or blown capacitors in a Falcon. Regardless, I agree that after 25 years you cannot trust an electrolytic capacitor. With an ESR meter you can check the health of an electrolytic capacitor without first removing it.
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:33 am

dhedberg wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:You can't unfortunately force anybody to think that "the capacitors on my motherboard looks so pure and poo free".
Just to see once disoldered that they have leaked in their pants :lol:
I try to convince as many people as possible about this potential problem, some are still saying "don't need to".

I replaced all the electrolytic capacitors in one of my Falcons. I measured the old ones after taking them out and to be honest, most of them (27) showed great values, while 2 of them had about 50% and 40% of their specified capacitance respectively. None of them had started leaking. I know this doesn't say much, but seems like Atari used fairly high quality capacitors in the Falcon. I've not heard about any cases of leaking or blown capacitors in a Falcon. Regardless, I agree that after 25 years you cannot trust an electrolytic capacitor. With an ESR meter you can check the health of an electrolytic capacitor without first removing it.


Yes 25 years is far beyond the life span of those elements. They have to be changed for new ones. It's good to know that Atari used good capacitors in the Falcon, because those inside the STF and STE were 3rd grade taiwanese shits, namely "CapXon" and "Wang's caps".
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby Maeke » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:00 am

dlfrsilver wrote:
dhedberg wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:You can't unfortunately force anybody to think that "the capacitors on my motherboard looks so pure and poo free".
Just to see once disoldered that they have leaked in their pants :lol:
I try to convince as many people as possible about this potential problem, some are still saying "don't need to".

I replaced all the electrolytic capacitors in one of my Falcons. I measured the old ones after taking them out and to be honest, most of them (27) showed great values, while 2 of them had about 50% and 40% of their specified capacitance respectively. None of them had started leaking. I know this doesn't say much, but seems like Atari used fairly high quality capacitors in the Falcon. I've not heard about any cases of leaking or blown capacitors in a Falcon. Regardless, I agree that after 25 years you cannot trust an electrolytic capacitor. With an ESR meter you can check the health of an electrolytic capacitor without first removing it.


Yes 25 years is far beyond the life span of those elements. They have to be changed for new ones. It's good to know that Atari used good capacitors in the Falcon, because those inside the STF and STE were 3rd grade taiwanese shits, namely "CapXon" and "Wang's caps".

And i'm pretty sure the original st(m) had the same taiwanese 3rd grade caps.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby mzry » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:31 am

My Falcon was full of CapXon and Wang's caps (rofl @ wangs caps, what a name)

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby Maeke » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:37 am

mzry wrote:My Falcon was full of CapXon and Wang's caps (rofl @ wangs caps, what a name)


Well CapXon also, what a name.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:00 pm

Those 2 brands are flagged as being pure crap. Check the Badcaps forum.

CapXon and Wang's caps are rubbish 3rd grade capacitors from Taiwan.
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby czietz » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:17 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:because those inside the STF and STE were 3rd grade taiwanese shits, namely "CapXon" and "Wang's caps".


I was quite surprised that at least the power supply in my STf had Nichicon and Chemicon caps, well regarded brands. I replaced them anyway. However, I have the capability to measure capacitance and ESR. When I measured the old desoldered caps from said power supply, they were still within their specs. So I don't agree that all capacitors are inevitably faulty after 25 years. It's just hard to tell from looking at them if they have gone bad.

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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:23 pm

czietz wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:because those inside the STF and STE were 3rd grade taiwanese shits, namely "CapXon" and "Wang's caps".


I was quite surprised that at least the power supply in my STf had Nichicon and Chemicon caps, well regarded brands. I replaced them anyway. However, I have the capability to measure capacitance and ESR. When I measured the old desoldered caps from said power supply, they were still within their specs. So I don't agree that all capacitors are inevitably faulty after 25 years. It's just hard to tell from looking at them if they have gone bad.


In fact, only my very first 1040 STF has the great PSU Chris described on his site, it's the Rheinwald Liteon PSU. This one has indeed good quality caps, and has a great regulation :)

But all the others i have, really got the craps cited above.

Capacitors are made to live 20 years (that's already a lot). But for a regular use, it's better to change them. Bad capacitors can do all sort of nasty things on the ST/e(s). From dimming to wrong display quality, etc etc.

The best thing is what you see once changed. On my main STe, the display was back to neat, and the dimming disappeared, and the PSU was heating really less than before :)
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Re: Axial 4,700uF replacement prototype board.

Postby exxos » Thu May 18, 2017 5:57 pm

These kits are now on sale in my store.

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/#0090
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator


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