Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby calimero » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:59 pm

vido wrote:
calimero wrote:
vido wrote:Majsta is from Serbia!

Bosne / Republike Srpske.


and btw - what is new Atari clone?

I am sorry! Majsta is really from Bosnia. I really switched him with Milan (calimero) :(
Izvini Milane!

What new Atari clone?

no problem.

1st1 mention that someone working on Atari clone few post before...
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby 1st1 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:16 pm

;) I told you so. Vincent, thanks!

And yes, other guys from this forum are silently working on Apollo based TOS machine, more compatible than Firebee ever could be. One of them wrote it in this forum, but without going into details. I had email contact and know a few more details, but I will not tell in public. I can promise you, what I know about it looks very promising. Just be patient, it will come. I think Vincents work on emutos, fvdi and SAGA graphics mode is also very usefull for them too, so Vincent, please continue your efforts, thumbs up! (24 and 32 bit graphics support, please!)
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby penguin » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:52 pm

wongck wrote:
penguin wrote: For C, there was something similar called ACSpro. Both were of course inspired by the NeXT's Interface Builder.


I did not know this. I thought ACSPro is just a library for GEM. Will take a look at this.
I really hate having to write a program and 80% of the time is just getting the GUI done.


ACSpro is closer to the idea of something like Interface Builder because you can design the GUI in ACSpro and assign functions which will be called when you use a GUI widget. Sadly, there is not much sample code out there except the ones you'll find on the official web site (acspro.atari.org).

Unfortunately, I only have experience with faceVALUE and when I received the source code for spareTIME, I chose cflib to modernise the application. If I'd write a big GEM application, I'd probably choose ACSpro or Windom.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby Frank B » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:26 pm

1st1 wrote:;) I told you so. Vincent, thanks!

And yes, other guys from this forum are silently working on Apollo based TOS machine, more compatible than Firebee ever could be. One of them wrote it in this forum, but without going into details. I had email contact and know a few more details, but I will not tell in public. I can promise you, what I know about it looks very promising. Just be patient, it will come. I think Vincents work on emutos, fvdi and SAGA graphics mode is also very usefull for them too, so Vincent, please continue your efforts, thumbs up! (24 and 32 bit graphics support, please!)


Firebee has one advantage. You can buy it now and it's been on sale for years. I've yet to see a video of the vampire working inside an Atari.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:44 pm

My general outlook is that until something is actually finished and available to buy it's dreamware and comparisons to actual shipping products is pointless. Actual shipping product specs > promised specs.
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby wongck » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:03 pm

With all these talking.... a Next Gen Atari running old ST makes no-sense.
Just get a now available ST-clone hardware and you can get going now today.... Stop dreaming because no need.

A Next gen atari must be able to run stuff that are common even on the Android/iOS platform (those tiny lower power CPU as compared to Intel/AMD) devices. Else why call it Next En?? What do you want next gen to do??
I think it is not going to happen as there is not much (reads as none) software for those stuff. So dream all you can.

if you are dreaming of Next Gen Atari, then no more nostalgic stuff for you because what do you really want? Run modern HD video on it ?
Sure you can get Star War A new Hope in HD on it.....
Or run your Elite or Ultima 4 on it ?
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby 1st1 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:48 am

Frank B wrote:
Firebee has one advantage. You can buy it now and it's been on sale for years. I've yet to see a video of the vampire working inside an Atari.


I am not interested in advantages of Firebee. Because it has disadvantage which can not be fixed.
Last edited by 1st1 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby 1st1 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:51 am

EmpireAndrew wrote:My general outlook is that until something is actually finished and available to buy it's dreamware and comparisons to actual shipping products is pointless. Actual shipping product specs > promised specs.


If all think like this there is no advance. Wheel and car has never been invented.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby 1st1 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:53 am

wongck wrote:A Next gen atari must be able to run stuff that are common even on the Android/iOS platform (those tiny lower power CPU as compared to Intel/AMD) devices.


Then you cann immedially use Android. Now. Without discussion anythin on 680x0 processors, TOS/GEM, and so on. Just go to shop, buy Android based smartphone or tablet and you are happy.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby calimero » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:50 pm

just thought about "Next Gen":

Amiga X1000 have DSP like Xena XMOS coprocessor but I am not sure if there is any benefit from it so far... (note of interest: XMOS David May was former chief architect of Inmos / ATW / Abaq / Transputer ;) so Amiga people keep dream alive :D). I believe that any new x86 or ARM can do same job as Xena.

And another though regarding "Next Gen" Amiga: someone made racing game for 1GHz Amiga




I am not thrill about this game but I was when I try Laurent Racer for 16MHz Falcon!
I really do not want "new" Atari but rather preserve the old one...

using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:33 pm

1st1 wrote:
EmpireAndrew wrote:My general outlook is that until something is actually finished and available to buy it's dreamware and comparisons to actual shipping products is pointless. Actual shipping product specs > promised specs.


If all think like this there is no advance. Wheel and car has never been invented.


You misunderstand....

If you're not happy with real shipping product you design *and produce* a new one.
But until the new one is available, comparisons to it are pointless. It's especially pointless to write off the already existing product. Until the planned product appears it's vapoirware and may never arrive.

Promising stuff is easy, delivering it isn't.
Just ask a politician... they've been promising unicorns for years...
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby LaurentS » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:19 pm

calimero wrote:just thought about "Next Gen":

I am not thrill about this game but I was when I try Laurent Racer for 16MHz Falcon!
I really do not want "new" Atari but rather preserve the old one...


I full agree here. That's exactly my point of view. Let's preserve the old Falcon as it was, with it's quality and defaults.
All in one, that was a very impressive computer with a lot of underexploited potential.
(Just look at Doug's DSP quake).

I dream about a 1:1 hardware falcon with exactly the same behaviour as my current one for preservation (and downing these crazy prizes).

Last remark: too bad they made the amiga/atari comparaison with Racer 1 and not Racer 2 ;)

regards
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby wongck » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:37 pm

1st1 wrote:Then you cann immedially use Android. Now. Without discussion anythin on 680x0 processors, TOS/GEM, and so on. Just go to shop, buy Android based smartphone or tablet and you are happy.


And I sure have, for Next Gen stuff like streaming, HD video, surfing, FBing, etc etc
and also some nostalgic games.... like Taipan (Apple ][ Chinese trading game) for Android. :wink:
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby Omikronman » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:12 am

"The existence of clean GEM applications"


There is no "clean" GEM. There is only GEM. "Clean" in terms of GEM only exists in the imagination of certain people. Most of them never wrote a program themself.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby joska » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:39 am

Omikronman wrote:There is no "clean" GEM. There is only GEM. "Clean" in terms of GEM only exists in the imagination of certain people. Most of them never wrote a program themself.


And what's your definition of "clean"?

My definition of a clean ->GEM<- application: A program that use only documented OS features for it's functionality, which allows it to run on all machines where said OS is present.

GST wrote 1ST Word back in 1985 or so. This program is working on my Firebee. STOS didn't even survive the switch from STFM to STE.

Of course, whether a machine that's only capable of running clean (my definition) programs is of interest would be up to the user. As the owner of two such machines (Milan060 and Firebee) I'd say that these are excellent machines for running clean (again, my definition) software, but personally I also need a proper Falcon and a proper ST sitting on my desk. A machine that combines the speed and graphics of the Milan with real backwards compatibility would be my dream "Next Gen Atari". And no, a simulation won't do.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby Omikronman » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:14 am

You want GEM applications. Understood. Clean not necessary means to be useful. Or as a programming book for the Atari once mentioned with a chapter (but in german): "GEM graphics - extremly sleepy".

Maybe people want programs in GEM even if they feel slow and sleepy?! Maybe they did not want these tired feeling on the ST and preferred programs not using GEM nor GDOS because these made the experience horrible.

Oh, I forgot. GDOS may be another part of the OS mentioned to be "clean". But sleepy in the same way. You use NVDI instead? Well, Omikron.Software itself told me that NVDI is not written "clean", causing problems with certain applications.

But the built-in GDOS replacement of NVDI was quick. So "quick and dirty" or "dull and clean" may both of some interest. Today with faster hardware this should be no issue. We blamed PC users back then to need a lot of CPU power just to run the OS in a decent way and laught about them...

...maybe today it is a bit more brillant doing it this way for our Atari OS. A good friend once mentioned that most of the guys who own a 68060 board for their Falcon mainly use it to speed up GEM... ;)

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby joska » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:25 am

Omnikronman, please read what I write instead of assuming what I want ;)
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby 1st1 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:31 am

Omikron told that NVDI is not programmed clean... That's funny. Omikron Basic was the sign of dirty GEM programming.
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1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3


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