Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby wongck » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:01 pm

lp wrote:Innovation sparks motivation. One really needs to have the speed at their disposal in order to be motivated and gauge what is doable.


Just like Netsurf ?
Still some areas lack the required speed. Not only does one part of the hardware need the speed, the rest of the parts needs as well.
Otherwise the CPU will be waiting for Graphics to finish which is waiting for network to complete the data transfer... etc etc.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby lp » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:21 pm

zView is probably another example. I don't think zorro would of added PDF support had in not been for the speed of aranym.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby mikro » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:12 am

I think I wont contribute with anything new here. I'm also a strong advocate of the real thing, there's really no point of having FreeMiNT on ARM or Intel for other than "I can do it" reason. As Jo correctly pointed out, there's no app or feature which couldn't be done on Linux/Windows, with much less effort.

Frankly, I'm wondering where the Amiga community finds all the manpower to maintain a (semi-)up to date browser, mail client etc. Also the fact they're using some kind of PPC from Freescale just to feel different... pointless IMHO. It's much easier (and saner) to have an Intel machine running Aranym with Hatari for games/demos running inside it (similar to what Philippe did with the BeeKey but more integrated into Aranym). And then you would ask "Why am I doing this? Why not run Hatari directly from my Windows?"

So yes, if we're talking about a next gen computer, let's do "FireBee done right" -- a machine with slots for original custom chips, FPGA for the rest and ability to use current hardware (USB, PCI etc), if desired. That would give you a) nice toy to play with b) still a m68k computer c) a platform to expand/change in the future.

There has been news Rodolphe Czuba is considering something close to it (yes, with the Apollo 68080) but still, it's not totally the same. For me, Falcon version of this would be more than enough for another 10 years: https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/shop/pro ... oaded.html

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby Faucon2001 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:49 am

wongck wrote:
vido wrote:@wongck: What do you think it would be better using 68080/Vampire as Coldfire/FireBee?

Why it is obvious.... no?
FireBee don't run SpeedoGDOS and so PDF maker program don't run well on FB.... Mua ha ha ha ha...

Ha ha ha, rotfl. I got a good laught at the break when I saw your answer.

@Vido : what do we need to do with Invers to show our interest? I'll be the first one to buy a new version of Calamus should it be ported to the Firebee. Should we open a survey of intention, a kind of prebooking site?

@Mikro : I got recently a discussion with OL about the possibility to launch a host app from within Aranym, in particular Hatari, without using the scripting tricks I use for BeeKey, and to my surprise it's not a crazy idea. I am going to ask on the Aranym mailing list now that it is reopened.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby mikro » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:53 am

Faucon2001 wrote:@Mikro : I got recently a discussion with OL about the possibility to launch a host app from within Aranym, in particular Hatari, without using the scripting tricks I use for BeeKey, and to my surprise it's not a crazy idea. I am going to ask on the Aranym mailing list now that it is reopened.

Is it? Wow, didn't know that.

About Hatari: actually, it shouldn't be too hard to patch aranym directly to help you with this, using its native features interface.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby Faucon2001 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:15 am

mikro wrote:About Hatari: actually, it shouldn't be too hard to patch aranym directly to help you with this, using its native features interface.

That's exactly what OL told me ... but after his explanations on how to use the native features interface left me with the conclusion that it is definitively out my reach :oops:
It would be so great if you could help on that.
There is so much that could be done with the native features : midi, sound matrix, video decoder, html5 decoder.... pushing the envelope of Aranym further and the integration with the host.

Now to return to the subject, this gives 2 clear roadmaps : push the Firebee for hardware lovers and Aranym for power hungry lovers.I am afraid that a third way will be a diversion of ressources, which are nowadays rare.

Ps : this is the new Aranym mailing list : https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/arany ... rce=footer
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby mikro » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:39 am

Philippe thank you very much for pointing out the new ML for me, no idea why I wasn't added there.

About the Hatari integration: I think I can help you with that. You just have to think about how exactly it should work -- obviously, you don't want to start Hatari for every *.prg so some kind of support from Desktop is needed.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby leech » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:36 am

I realize this isn't quite what you are referring to... but the latest Hatari package in Debian associates .ST and .MSA files with Hatari, so all I have to do is double click one on Nautilus and it'll launch Hatri with the disk inserted.

I am guessimg that is what we'd want, but from within Aranym, right?
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby Faucon2001 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:24 am

mikro wrote:About the Hatari integration: I think I can help you with that. You just have to think about how exactly it should work -- obviously, you don't want to start Hatari for every *.prg so some kind of support from Desktop is needed.

Well I see 4 levels of integrations, with obviously different levels of complexity :
- 1 : a basic launcher which will put Aranym in the background and start Hatari full screen to boot on a specific config file or floppy passed as parameter by the desktop. You shutdown Hatari and you're back to Aranym. This is more or less what BeeKey is doing right now with scripts.
- 2 : the same as 1 but with the possibility to switch back and forth between Aranym and Hatari. Clipboard management is interesting in this case. Only one instance of Hatari is allowed to be run at any time.
- 3 : a complete integration at application level. You install an app on Aranym desktop to work with Hatari. A double click on it will start hatari and run it full screen with the possibility to switch back and forth between Aranym and Hatari. Clipboard management is a must in this case. App management may be tricky as Hatari is mainly for single task app, so if Hatari is running on the Desktop it doesn't need to be restarted and can start the new app passed as parameter, if it's running an app, a new instance should be launched. An easier option is not allowing to run more than one instance of Hatari and oblige to quit and restart Hatari for every new app : you quit the app on Hatari, it shutdowns automatically Hatari and return to Aranym. In the end not so annoying as Hatari boot time is reasonably fast. This option sounds much tricky to me, as I am not sure that Hatari accepts to be passed an app as parameter, and knowing the state of Hatari should need quite a lot of change in it too. Also the launcher on the Aranym side will need to attach a specific config file to each app. (Ex : TOS 1.62 for some games and demos, TOS 1.02 for other games or demos, TOS 2.06 for Calamus or Cubase, TOS 4.04 for Falcon app...)
- 4 : the same as 3 but with the Hatari running into a gem window under Aranym/ Mint. In fact a real integration as it was done for OS9 within OSX at the beginning.

Level 2 will be a real step forward and sounds reasonably feasible, level 4 is the optimum but I guess it's pure madness in term of development as it needs to modify Aranym, Mint and Hatari.
Level 1 was what I was thinking at least.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby Faucon2001 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:28 am

leech wrote:I am guessimg that is what we'd want, but from within Aranym, right?
Our message got crossed, that exactly that. See my previous post
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:47 am

I would think of it this way...(not saying it is possible but..)

Aranym runs on boot. Programs can be flagged as "compatibility mode" or such in some way (properties tab). If such a flagged program is launched then Hatari runs it in a window (or full screen). Might take some changes in Hatari I don't really know.

Then we have clean programs running under Aranym/Mint, but games,demos,"dirty programs" launch under an instance of Hatari transparently in it's own window or full screen. Not sure if Hatari can do this in it's present state, but would be nice. Would allow a similar situation as "Compatibility mode" under Windows. Just an idea. Would need Hatari to allow multiple instances of course. Maybe the author of Hatari could look into this. With BeeKey and BeePI, this could be a very viable solution.

Since BeeKey and BeePI allow higher resolutions, it would be conceivable to run games and demos in a smaller window to match the original resolution.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby mikro » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:07 am

Philippe: I'll write you a PM

TheNameOfTheGame:
- the properties would be a desktop *and* os thing, i.e. you would never be able to run a game/demo from plain tos (as it's hard to patch...)
- Hatari can run its own window with a disk/prg specified via command line so yes, this is possible, as long as we're talking about separate HOST OS windows
- the rest is easy

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:51 am

mikro wrote:Philippe: I'll write you a PM

TheNameOfTheGame:
- the properties would be a desktop *and* os thing, i.e. you would never be able to run a game/demo from plain tos (as it's hard to patch...)
- Hatari can run its own window with a disk/prg specified via command line so yes, this is possible, as long as we're talking about separate HOST OS windows
- the rest is easy


Not TOS but Mint. Mint is open source right and Thing is actively developed if I remember. Maybe some solution could be reached to allow it? Wouldn't need X5000 style hardware then. Just throwing this out...have no idea of the details to make it possible.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby vido » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:31 am

Faucon2001 wrote:@Vido : what do we need to do with Invers to show our interest? I'll be the first one to buy a new version of Calamus should it be ported to the Firebee. Should we open a survey of intention, a kind of prebooking site?

For the beginning just show them (him) your interest by sending them an email. Dont be discouraged by potentialy negative answer. He told us to try porting it again with enough interest.
But at the end survey would be great. Maybe just to wait all the FireBees of the second serie will be delivered. I guess then there will be more interest.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby joska » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:01 am

lp wrote:zView is probably another example. I don't think zorro would of added PDF support had in not been for the speed of aranym.


That's one... How long has ARAnyM existed?

The thing is, powerful hardware is great. Up to a certain point that allows us to run our existing hardware faster, and on larger screen resolutions. But you get to a point where even more powerful hardware doesn't make any difference. What's the difference in compiling a big project in 1.9 seconds instead of 2.0 seconds? With ARAnyM we're already way beyond that point. To exploit this speed someone has to create new software that actually uses this power. After how many years of ARAnyM - where are those apps?

Considering the software base we actually have there's still a lot of potential in the 68k platform. The Vampire has shown us that. Going for a completely new CPU will only divide the few "serious" Atari users left into two camps, just like we've seen on the Amiga the last two decades.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby vido » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:10 am

mikro wrote:I think I wont contribute with anything new here. I'm also a strong advocate of the real thing, there's really no point of having FreeMiNT on ARM or Intel for other than "I can do it" reason. As Jo correctly pointed out, there's no app or feature which couldn't be done on Linux/Windows, with much less effort.

So yes, if we're talking about a next gen computer, let's do "FireBee done right" -- a machine with slots for original custom chips, FPGA for the rest and ability to use current hardware (USB, PCI etc), if desired. That would give you a) nice toy to play with b) still a m68k computer c) a platform to expand/change in the future.

There has been news Rodolphe Czuba is considering something close to it (yes, with the Apollo 68080) but still, it's not totally the same. For me, Falcon version of this would be more than enough for another 10 years: https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/shop/pro ... oaded.html

I am also all for real thing. I just love the FireBee as it has so much potential to be developed further. But there is lask of support and developers. The problem is that developers are frustrated as there is not enough devlopers. But if we could gather some new developers to work on the project and get some old important developers back to the project I believe a lot can be done.
And I believe chances to get new support and developers will be stronger when all FireBees of the second serie will be delivered.
Also it seems a lot of Atari users dont know what is allready possible with the FireBee as they write in this thread thing they want but the FireBee allready has them integrated.

So Mikro, what is your idea how to do FireBee right? How to motivate the developers? You are one of them and already contributed to the project a lot. I use MxPlay a lot. Also ports of your SDL based games. Not to mention MiNT! Thanks for that! :)
Also Wongck is doing great job! PHGmap is great and I also use it a lot. I have new ideas hot to improve it a bit if Wongck is interested. And I think he is. He allready implemented my suggestion. Thanks Wongck! :)
There is a Lonny with his great GBE! His patches of the old software to run on the FireBee are also important! And codecs for the Zview! Tnaks Lonny.
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I believe many dont know what they did for the FireBee and what is FireBee capable to do thanks to them.

Maybe there should be more dicussion what developers and users expect from FireBee and what is allready possible to do with it? To potentialy set the development roadmap and find a developers to work on that?

I dont know. I also miss constructive discusion about the FireBee project in public ...

BTW. New FireBee serie maybe could get some hardware improvement. Fredi showed interest to work on new features if ... ;)

I focused on the FireBee in this post.
But I am also for the native version of the EmuTOS and MiNT on the ARM platform ;)

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby lp » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:16 am

joska wrote:
lp wrote:zView is probably another example. I don't think zorro would of added PDF support had in not been for the speed of aranym.


That's one... How long has ARAnyM existed?

The thing is, powerful hardware is great. Up to a certain point that allows us to run our existing hardware faster, and on larger screen resolutions. But you get to a point where even more powerful hardware doesn't make any difference. What's the difference in compiling a big project in 1.9 seconds instead of 2.0 seconds? With ARAnyM we're already way beyond that point. To exploit this speed someone has to create new software that actually uses this power. After how many years of ARAnyM - where are those apps?

Considering the software base we actually have there's still a lot of potential in the 68k platform. The Vampire has shown us that. Going for a completely new CPU will only divide the few "serious" Atari users left into two camps, just like we've seen on the Amiga the last two decades.


Well I was only giving an example of how speed can motivate a coder. Myself, I am quite aware that even with all this speed, it has not spawned much new software at all. That is certainly a fair assessment of the situation.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby vido » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:28 am

joska wrote:
lp wrote:zView is probably another example. I don't think zorro would of added PDF support had in not been for the speed of aranym.


That's one... How long has ARAnyM existed?

The thing is, powerful hardware is great. Up to a certain point that allows us to run our existing hardware faster, and on larger screen resolutions. But you get to a point where even more powerful hardware doesn't make any difference. What's the difference in compiling a big project in 1.9 seconds instead of 2.0 seconds? With ARAnyM we're already way beyond that point. To exploit this speed someone has to create new software that actually uses this power. After how many years of ARAnyM - where are those apps?

Considering the software base we actually have there's still a lot of potential in the 68k platform. The Vampire has shown us that. Going for a completely new CPU will only divide the few "serious" Atari users left into two camps, just like we've seen on the Amiga the last two decades.

I have to dissagre with you there.
Ported SDL games like Scummvm. OpenTTD, Doom, ... would aprechiate more power.
Mac emulator, 3d rendering software and AniPlay, NetSurf, Hatari, ... allways will benefit from more power!
If you dont use them as you use PC for that it doesnt mean that people like me dont use them on every day basis.

And I dont believe porting EmuTOS and MiNT to other platform will split Atari users into two camps at all!!!
Maybe just the users who use ARAnyM now they will use Pi with native MiNT running on it instead of ARAnyM. And we would get new users and mostly developers who arent Atari users now but they are developers and have font memories at old Atari times when they used Atari computers. Dont forget than all applications developed with gcc would need just to be recompiled for use on real Atari computers. Maybe they wont be usable because the lack of CPU power but they will run and maybe become usable on potentialy more powefull 68k based Atari clone. But such applications would be usable under ARAnyM!

And I will still use my FireBee, Milan, TT, ... further also if there will be ARM native MiNT. Maybe I will just swich from BeeKey to it :)

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby joska » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:02 am

vido wrote:Ported SDL games like Scummvm. OpenTTD, Doom, ... would aprechiate more power.


More power than a "6GHz 040"? How many fps do you need? ;)

vido wrote:Mac emulator, 3d rendering software and AniPlay, NetSurf, Hatari, ... allways will benefit from more power!


But when you run these under ARAnyM you're actually very close to native speeds.

vido wrote:And I dont believe porting EmuTOS and MiNT to other platform will split Atari users into two camps at all!!!
Maybe just the users who use ARAnyM now they will use Pi with native MiNT running on it instead of ARAnyM. And we would get new users and mostly developers who arent Atari users now but they are developers and have font memories at old Atari times when they used Atari computers. Dont forget than all applications developed with gcc would need just to be recompiled for use on real Atari computers. Maybe they wont be usable because the lack of CPU power but they will run and maybe become usable on potentialy more powefull 68k based Atari clone. But such applications would be usable under ARAnyM!

And I will still use my FireBee, Milan, TT, ... further also if there will be ARM native MiNT. Maybe I will just swich from BeeKey to it :)


From a technical point of view it's ofcourse interesting to get EmuTOS and MiNT running natively on another CPU. But from a user perspective there is little or no benefits compared to running under an emulator. After all, the OS spends virtually all of it's time waiting for the user or user program to do something. A user will never notice any speed increase. All legacy software would have to be run under emulation anyway, so no increase in speed. To get any increase in speed you would have to compile software for the native CPU. How can you say that this won't cause fragmentation?

Also, by running EmuTOS/MiNT on "bare metal" you loose the advantage of running on top of a more sophisticated and capable OS. Now you need to implement the hardware drivers yourself - networking, graphics cards, USB...
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby vido » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:43 am

joska wrote:More power than a "6GHz 040"? How many fps do you need? ;)

In most cases I dont need 6GHz 040. But if I have 6GHz why not 10GHz? Sooner or later we will get that also with ARAnyM :)

vido wrote:Mac emulator, 3d rendering software and AniPlay, NetSurf, Hatari, ... allways will benefit from more power!

But when you run these under ARAnyM you're actually very close to native speeds.

True! But what would be wrong with the native speed?

From a technical point of view it's ofcourse interesting to get EmuTOS and MiNT running natively on another CPU. But from a user perspective there is little or no benefits compared to running under an emulator. After all, the OS spends virtually all of it's time waiting for the user or user program to do something. A user will never notice any speed increase. All legacy software would have to be run under emulation anyway, so no increase in speed. To get any increase in speed you would have to compile software for the native CPU. How can you say that this won't cause fragmentation?

If we will use only legacy software we actualy dont need new hardware! Running software under emulation in ARAnyM is the same as running software under emulation in native MiNT. Extra you get is the possibility to run also native software. Ans if you can compile software for the Coldfire you can compile it also for ARM. What is the difference? And if you can compile it for the Coldfire and ARM you can compile it also for the 68k. Or I am wrong?
And I have a question. What defines the platform? OS or hardware. Or waht defines platform the most? Would you rather run DOS and "Windows" on 68k platform and say this is Atari or you would prefer to run TOS/MiNT on Intel/ARM and say this is Atari? If you would have to choose just betwen those two options?

Also, by running EmuTOS/MiNT on "bare metal" you loose the advantage of running on top of a more sophisticated and capable OS. Now you need to implement the hardware drivers yourself - networking, graphics cards, USB...

True! So this is the reason why I would port EmuTOS/MiNT to the Pi first. No different grapnics/network/sound cards. You just need to develop driver for the one type of hardware. And they are allready developed and available to port.

Anyway I am more into original 68k hardware. I just dont believe this would lead into fragmentation of the scene. I think we would just gain some new users and mostly developers and some development could be ported to 68k for sure.

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby wongck » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:54 am

Faucon2001 wrote:- 4 : the same as 3 but with the Hatari running into a gem window under Aranym/ Mint. In fact a real integration as it was done for OS9 within OSX at the beginning.


This !!!

And smooth transition between the two, each having a timeslice of the CPU, all running on top of the host OS.
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:11 pm

Personally I'm all about the original hardware, so some kind of plug in CPU accelerator, say top end 040(?) and a graphics board to give say 1280x1024 with 16million colors and I'm happy. Oh and while I'm asking, faster Ethernet.

Once the CPU is not Motorola and once it's not inside an original case I lose interest. In fact I'd say I want to use the original motherboard too.

For me, if you're too far removed from the original hardware you may as well just run an emulator on whatever the fastest Intel chip is. And I have zero interest in that.

But that's just me obviously...
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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1st1
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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby 1st1 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:26 pm

EmpireAndrew: Vampire would do it for you. There is only no "(M)" printing on the CPU chip.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby fidzen » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:03 pm

I'm also a fan of the real HW. I have a Falcon with CT63 running at steady 90MHz and with SuperVidel + Svetlana.
Running MINT on that system is really powerful, and I can still just switch to 030 mode.
I have ordered a Firebee because it seems to be a great piece of HW to play with. I think it's better to try to
develop more for the Firebee instead of making new HW all the time.
Atari Falcon, 14Mb RAM, CT60e, Supervidel, Svetlana, 512Mb RAM, 8Gb CF.
Atari Falcon, 14Mb RAM, CT63, 256Mb RAM,4Gb CF.
Firebee Series 2, 16Gb CF, 2Gb SD, MEGA ST Keyboard and Atari Mice.
Atari Stacy 2 with 4Mb RAM and 20Mb HD.
Atari Lynx II with new LCD and VGA output.
Atari 2600 4-switch Woody

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Re: Dreaming of a Next Gen Atari - one can Dream!

Postby LaurentS » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:05 pm

Hi all

Mikro said :
> For me, Falcon version of this would be more than enough for another 10 years: https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/shop/pro ... oaded.html

I full agree here. I'm not that interrested with fast Atari computers.
I've got a nice Linux PC computer for todays life applications (like browing, text editing, music and videos, gaming, ...)

I'm much more interrested by the standard Atari machines (STF, STE, and most of all, standard Falcon).

It's "quite" easy to recompile programs from other plateform (when they are SDL compliant for example) for a fast Atari like computer, but taking the best advantage of the real limited hardware is what I like. (Look at Doug DSP Quake and Doom ports, that's the real spirit of the Atari for me).

When I need faster tools, I use Aranym and of course Hatari.
When I need more modern tools, I use my Linux box with all the modern softwares.

Like Mikro, I'd dream about a new modern Falcon with exact standard hardware (without any change to the specs, no 68060, no 32 bits bus, ...).
I know it would be hard to find the Combel componant specs for example, but that's my dream.

For fast machine, I'm OK with Aranym (and it'll be faster when I buy my next PC), so no Atari hardware upgrade to do.

That's just my 2 cents.

Have fun, stay (H)atari.


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