Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby joska » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:14 pm

You don't get it :) If exxos finds pleasure in creating a 32MHz ST accelerator using a real 68000, of course that's what he will do! It's a hobby, not a job.

Vampire is a very promising project. I will probably buy one. But it's not the ultimate solution. It will not run a single demo and virtually no original games.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby exxos » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:25 pm

joska wrote:You don't get it :) If exxos finds pleasure in creating a 32MHz ST accelerator using a real 68000, of course that's what he will do! It's a hobby, not a job.
.


...words of wisdom. :thumbs:

Thing is, years ago, not 1 person was doing boosters, then over the past year, everyone is doing them. That is beyond my control what others do. I started this work as nobody else was doing it, and I wanted to. Work has got slower and slower because there isn't much demand for boosters and as I said before, I do lots of other kits which takes up a huge amount of my time also.

I develop stuff, as its what I want to do, if some people want to buy the stuff, then I do a small run, it funds more developments and gives me more motivation to continue.

If people would rather buy something else then fair enough, At least if there are several others interested in what I do, it makes it more worthwhile doing the work.

If people don't want to buy my stuff, fair enough, I have other hobbies, I had to abandon my Tesla Coil stuff as I spend all my time on Atari stuff.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:03 pm

joska wrote:You don't get it :) If exxos finds pleasure in creating a 32MHz ST accelerator using a real 68000, of course that's what he will do! It's a hobby, not a job.

Vampire is a very promising project. I will probably buy one. But it's not the ultimate solution. It will not run a single demo and virtually no original games.


A 32 Mhz 68000 will also not run many demos and games as they are using a lot of software timings (inserting NOPs) to get the effects. A 32 MHz NOP is four times faster than a 8 MHz NOP and so effects like Overscan, Sample, more colors will get lost.

Turbo card ist not for ST games and ST demos. If you want to run ST games and demos you have to use a stock ST.
Last edited by 1st1 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby exxos » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:05 pm

1st1 wrote:Exxos, rpineau and all, I see the total solution in Vampire. It includes fast, fully compatible CPU (with throtteling) (PMMU is open topic, but let's wait...), Fastram, IDE/SD-Card-Support, Full-HD-Graphics card and much more in very small space which could fit in any ST series machines. One day when it will be available for ST it makes all other turbo cards, memeory and graphics cards just obsolete.


The whole lot become obsolete when PC's took mainstream. What can all this fancy tech do which I can't do on my PC ? Theres emulators which run Atari software.

1st1 wrote:I understand your argument that as it's not availabe yet then it's not real.


Meanwhile people like myself are working on actual hardware making actual progress with stuff and working though issues ourselves.

1st1 wrote:And they are AMIGA guys, don't trust AMiga guys, they are just the dark side, evil...


A good friend of mine is a Amiga guy. I contacted Amiga people few years back asking for help, even the vampire guys. Best I got back was a one liner of un-helpfulness. So yes, I don't like Amiga hardware guys, Similar when I contacted Apollo, I was interested in using their core, Basically got laughed at, they said no way they would ever do a Atari version. oddly my original account on their forum along with posts all vanished. So they pretty much summed up the dark side for me. So myself and Rodolphe teamed up to do things ourselves as it was clear all we got from the Amiga side of things.... basically got the middle finger.

So don't twist it around please, I don't just say something without good reason.

1st1 wrote:But that shows that you don't have visions.


What a total load of bollox. Thanks for the insult.


1st1 wrote:You can make your 68020,30 turbocards and so, but one day peoples will bite in their own ass when Vampire is available and they have spent money and effort in those legacy cards with second hand processors and so.


Yeah, as all the Atari comminuty just buys what they are told without considering anything anything at all. obviously they are all stupid. If people want to wait for vampire, they are free to do so. Makes no odds to me.

1st1 wrote:More intelligent would be to take all these VHDL codes from MiST, Suska and so on for the different ATARI custom chips and modify these VHDL codes


Hold on, I have been suggesting the VHDL codes be translated into real chips as replacements and for upgrades for years. I got zero help in that respect. So I deal with real hardware.

1st1 wrote:Such modified VHDL codes could be easily merged into Vampire and would get an Vampire ST comming much closer. It's in your hands.


Vampire is nothing to do with me, neither is VHDL code, or MiST or Suska.

1st1 wrote:So just continue to build the 10th type of slightly different 68020 accelerators... Every Atari guy has to made his own, otherwise he is no real man. Have fun! Don't care on double work.


I wouldn't have to do double work if I had got help when I asked for it would I. If the booster work was completed, then likely I would be developing GFX cards or other more interesting addons.

But no, as they saying goes "want something doing, then do it yourself". Apollo & Amiga guys put me in this situation, so don't come with those comments thanks. I tried very hard for years to get help, nobody was interested.

So yes, we will continue to develop what we want to do and how we want to do it with zero support from anyone else. Frankly, its nobodys business what we do or don't do. If people want to buy my stuff, they buy it, if they dont, then makes no odds to me, I have other hobbies.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:15 pm

In summary: Everybody sits on his island, all do the same without cooperating on their proper island. A super team, isn't it? I think it could be much more effective.

By the way, I have different experience with the Apollo guys. They came by themselves and proposed an ATARI version of Vampire. But they requested for help. But ATARI guys sit on their high horses. Maybe you have asked them in a too early state of the project, or with the wrong voice. You know, in Germany we have a speech which says roughly "it sounds out of the forest the same way as you shout in." (don't know if this is a good translation)

my tipp: learn VHDL. That is the future.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby shoggoth » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:34 pm

1st1 wrote:In summary: Everybody sits on his island, all do the same without cooperating on their proper island. A super team, isn't it? I think it could be much more effective.

By the way, I have different experience with the Apollo guys. They came by themselves and proposed an ATARI version of Vampire. But they requested for help. But ATARI guys sit on their high horses. Maybe you have asked them in a too early state of the project, or with the wrong voice. You know, in Germany we have a speech which says roughly "it sounds out of the forest the same way as you shout in." (don't know if this is a good translation)

my tipp: learn VHDL. That is the future.


What's your contribution, 1st1?
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby troed » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:07 am

1st1 wrote:Exxos, rpineau and all, I see the total solution in Vampire


We're sure you are.

No one else is.

Please direct further comments into a thread about the Vampire. And no other.

/Troed

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby leech » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:44 am

exxos wrote:I wouldn't have to do double work if I had got help when I asked for it would I. If the booster work was completed, then likely I would be developing GFX cards or other more interesting addons.

But no, as they saying goes "want something doing, then do it yourself". Apollo & Amiga guys put me in this situation, so don't come with those comments thanks. I tried very hard for years to get help, nobody was interested.

So yes, we will continue to develop what we want to do and how we want to do it with zero support from anyone else. Frankly, its nobodys business what we do or don't do. If people want to buy my stuff, they buy it, if they dont, then makes no odds to me, I have other hobbies.


I'd say just kind of ignore 1st1, he seems to be on this 'vampire is greater than all, and Amiga guys are cool' but then clearly doesn't understand the Amiga landscape of things. I started out Atari, finally got me an Amiga, upgraded the hell out of it, then finally got a Falcon and still love it just that much more than the A4000.

The Boosters are very useful for some of the productivity software, clearly 1st1 doesn't understand that there might be some favourite program out there that only runs on the ST line of computers, or maybe they just love the simplicity / stability. personally I just love playing with various operating systems, and the tighter the constraints, the more enjoyable it is to see where you can take it.

I would have ordered a booster from you myself if I didn't already have a Falcon, TT030 and Mega STe in addition to the 1040STe that I replaced the PSU and ROMs on.

A Generic expansion bus on top of the boosters is an incredible idea, but like you said there needs to be someone out there willing to design something for it.

Hell, an 68030 booster that adds TT's Shifter would be pretty cool. I'm guessing that would require EmuTOS or TOS3.0x?

Think how nice that'd be, STe/TT switchable machine? Funny thing is about all the hardware mods though, you have other people doing software hacks to get the games/demos working on later machines outside of the stock ST as well, so that's great work there.

The most valid point of this thread is that it would be nice if there were a group of geniuses that love hacking on Atari hardware that could get together to do some projects. This doesn't really happen all that well in Amiga land either. The Vampire idea was originally supposed to be the Natami, which died off. Then there was the Ultimate PPC, haven't heard anything about that forever, etc. LOT of projects have died off, mostly because people lose interest. But look at something like the CT60, from what I understand of it, it is in like the 4th or 5th iteration? Because it's a wanted upgrade!

There certainly are very few 'heroes' left in the Atari world, don't lose heart because of a few jackasses that over demand, or think you're doing things wrong. :P
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby rpineau » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:08 am

Thanks Leech.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby joska » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:15 am

1st1 wrote:Turbo card ist not for ST games and ST demos. If you want to run ST games and demos you have to use a stock ST.


True for the Vampire. Not true for other accelerators, on both the ST and Falcon.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby nukebloodaxe » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:10 am

Personally, I look at what has been done before regarding CPU designs and compatibility, which mainly involved the presence of a sub-core which handled legacy tasks. There is a late example of an Atari product which did have a hybridized CPU architecture, and that was the STE+, which was effectively a 286 and 68000 working in tandem with an interesting interrupt request.

I note that the community does have the schematics for the STE+ PCB, which has some rather interesting features. It is not a great stretch of the imagination to suggest a modified approach, and that would be a 68000 processor working in conjunction with a 68030 or higher. With the necessary tinkering, I suspect you could have a system that could handle both alongside a shifter translator (ST translated to Falcon style shifter, it would need to be fully compatible.) For those wanting to break the mould a bit, I note the community has the ASIC schematics for the Panther Shifter, there is an opportunity there even if it is highly exotic.

I know such a machine would look like the bastard child of who knows what, but no-one could deny it wasn't exciting, and we have all the parts now; minus the GALS which would need to be developed, of course. The big issue is making the interfaces and ensuring across the board compatibility via hardware shims. However, it would fit inside the traditional case.

@exxoss, I've picked up another STE, so I'll be buying more mods. Unfortunately, my purchasing rate is currently dictated by the difficulty of me getting hardware in/to NZ to upgrade.

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Maeke » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:34 pm

1st1 don't talk when you don't know, basically you'll just learn the lesson exxos learnt the hard way years ago. How to cooperate with others when noone is willing?
Ho and one thing about exxos's boosters, they are switchable to stock frequency if needed. his tos kits give you the choice between the latest stock tos or tos 2.06 (or 1.02 / 1.04 for one of them), and his memory kits (stf(m)) are switchable 1MB / 4 MB, with all this, just show me a st game or a demo you can't use at all.
And there is a way to do the memory switch on a ste.

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:59 pm

joska wrote:
1st1 wrote:Turbo card ist not for ST games and ST demos. If you want to run ST games and demos you have to use a stock ST.


True for the Vampire. Not true for other accelerators, on both the ST and Falcon.


My PAK68/2 (68020-16 + FPU) also can't run many demos and games properly. They look and sound quite strange or run too fast (music, graphics).

For ST games & demos no turbo card is required. A 2nd 1040ST is cheap for that.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:04 pm

Maeke wrote:1st1 don't talk when you don't know, basically you'll just learn the lesson exxos learnt the hard way years ago. How to cooperate with others when noone is willing?


The joke is, they are willing! You (the community here) not! The initiative to support Atari, to support EmuTOS, that came from them. They would be glad to hear from you. But now I think you would not be the first to serious consider to cooperate with them. Just chatted with Gunnar, also Gunnar is now more familar with ST and I have the impression, the closer he looks inside, the more he likes the machine. He told, it has some very clever design details in TOS and hardware design.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby DarkLord » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:06 pm

joska wrote:
1st1 wrote:Turbo card ist not for ST games and ST demos. If you want to run ST games and demos you have to use a stock ST.


True for the Vampire. Not true for other accelerators, on both the ST and Falcon.


Precisely. My Pak 68/3 board has an actual 68000 on it. I flip a conveniently located switch
and boom! I'm back to stock STacy mode and I can view all my Photochrome pictures and
play any game or demo.

Same goes for the Adspeed board in my Mega ST4. It even has software (.PRG or an ACC) to
switch "on the fly". It also has a list that you can put programs into and instruct the Adspeed
how to act when that program is started.

Honestly, I don't think I would have bought and installed either one if they didn't have some
way to ensure compatibility with stubborn software.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:12 pm

nukebloodaxe wrote:Personally, I look at what has been done before regarding CPU designs and compatibility, which mainly involved the presence of a sub-core which handled legacy tasks. There is a late example of an Atari product which did have a hybridized CPU architecture, and that was the STE+, which was effectively a 286 and 68000 working in tandem with an interesting interrupt request.

I note that the community does have the schematics for the STE+ PCB, which has some rather interesting features. It is not a great stretch of the imagination to suggest a modified approach, and that would be a 68000 processor working in conjunction with a 68030 or higher. With the necessary tinkering, I suspect you could have a system that could handle both alongside a shifter translator (ST translated to Falcon style shifter, it would need to be fully compatible.) For those wanting to break the mould a bit, I note the community has the ASIC schematics for the Panther Shifter, there is an opportunity there even if it is highly exotic.

I know such a machine would look like the bastard child of who knows what, but no-one could deny it wasn't exciting, and we have all the parts now; minus the GALS which would need to be developed, of course. The big issue is making the interfaces and ensuring across the board compatibility via hardware shims. However, it would fit inside the traditional case.

@exxoss, I've picked up another STE, so I'll be buying more mods. Unfortunately, my purchasing rate is currently dictated by the difficulty of me getting hardware in/to NZ to upgrade.


The 286 in STE should be the same thing as AT-Speed. In german forum we discussed the STE+ as well, and we have the opinion that ATARI got/bought the design from Sack Electronik which designed the original PC/AT-Speed boards. I have a Mega STE with 286 addon board. Quite funny.

Personally I think switching between the original 68000 and a newer 680x0 is not of importance. An additional 1040 for gaming and demos does not eat a lot of bread. (Something new, like ARM "coprocessor" (to run Android in a MiNT window :P ) would be much more fancy.)
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:28 pm

leech wrote:
I'd say just kind of ignore 1st1, he seems to be on this 'vampire is greater than all, and Amiga guys are cool' but then clearly doesn't understand the Amiga landscape of things. I started out Atari, finally got me an Amiga, upgraded the hell out of it, then finally got a Falcon and still love it just that much more than the A4000.
Nice for you, I also love my two Falcons. One will get a CT60e.

The Boosters are very useful for some of the productivity software, clearly 1st1 doesn't understand that there might be some favourite program out there that only runs on the ST line of computers, or maybe they just love the simplicity / stability. personally I just love playing with various operating systems, and the tighter the constraints, the more enjoyable it is to see where you can take it.
I agree for you that there are tons of software which does not run on any turbo card, even not on 68000-16, as it has very sensible timing programming, like in games and demos. (I also did some demo programming in the end '80, beginning of the 90's, but I never released as it was quite ugly, but with working overscan, and that is very timing sensitive

I would have ordered a booster from you myself if I didn't already have a Falcon, TT030 and Mega STe in addition to the 1040STe that I replaced the PSU and ROMs on.
Look at my signature. I have them all.
A Generic expansion bus on top of the boosters is an incredible idea, but like you said there needs to be someone out there willing to design something for it.
And what kind of expansion boards you want to plug in. Who designs them? What do you need beside a graphics card and LAN card?
Hell, an 68030 booster that adds TT's Shifter would be pretty cool. I'm guessing that would require EmuTOS or TOS3.0x?
Vampire one day might add Videl zo a standard ST. Videl also conatins the TT modes except of TT-high, but maybe this could be added, and up to Full-HD in 32 Bit color?
Think how nice that'd be, STe/TT switchable machine? Funny thing is about all the hardware mods though, you have other people doing software hacks to get the games/demos working on later machines outside of the stock ST as well, so that's great work there.
ST-Falcon-switchable machine would be nicer... Vampire can be disabled...
The most valid point of this thread is that it would be nice if there were a group of geniuses that love hacking on Atari hardware that could get together to do some projects. This doesn't really happen all that well in Amiga land either. The Vampire idea was originally supposed to be the Natami, which died off. Then there was the Ultimate PPC, haven't heard anything about that forever, etc. LOT of projects have died off, mostly because people lose interest. But look at something like the CT60, from what I understand of it, it is in like the 4th or 5th iteration? Because it's a wanted upgrade!
Natami failed because of Coldfire is not compatible enough to run Amiga-OS and many many software. So they started the new CPU core on their own. Very understandable. PPC was earlier than Natami. Also PPC is not the top notch, it has to emulate 68k. Ct60 is nice, but why then you would not like a Vampire, because Vampire will be even more faster, plus kind of Supervidel...?
There certainly are very few 'heroes' left in the Atari world, don't lose heart because of a few jackasses that over demand, or think you're doing things wrong. :P

Don't understand this. The heroes are already doing what is neccessary, just got some news again today. You will see and you will be excited about the results, I promise you. I can't tell more now.
Last edited by 1st1 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Maeke » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:37 pm

1st1 wrote:
Maeke wrote:1st1 don't talk when you don't know, basically you'll just learn the lesson exxos learnt the hard way years ago. How to cooperate with others when noone is willing?


The joke is, they are willing! You (the community here) not! The initiative to support Atari, to support EmuTOS, that came from them. They would be glad to hear from you. But now I think you would not be the first to serious consider to cooperate with them. Just chatted with Gunnar, also Gunnar is now more familar with ST and I have the impression, the closer he looks inside, the more he likes the machine. He told, it has some very clever design details in TOS and hardware design.


Well even so, i simply don't have enough money to invest in one of those boards, and an exxos's booster is enough for my needs anyway. What use is a board that a part of the users can't afford, they can't buy it and admit it, the difference in power isn't necessary for a good part of us, in the contrary, the existing addons allow us to use modern storage, peripherals and screens on those old computers, i, and a lot of others, don't need more.
And for those who do need more, there are the firebee and the mist. Or emulators.

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:07 pm

About affording and testing of Vampire in ST I speak in Delphi oracle language: developers understand each other... one hand washes the other. Do you understand?

If the existing is enough for you, then why you discuss?
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby exxos » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:27 pm

1st1 wrote:The joke is, they are willing! You (the community here) not!


Its really laughable that you want help from the community to invest in apollo's design, and yet, wouldn't it make more sense for apollo to bring something to the table to aid in existing designs rather than slating their efforts and forcing vampire down everyones throat ?

The door swings both ways for collaboration, its no use everyone in Atari world helping Apollo out which is all I seem to have seen so far. Also Apollo seems to be a commercial venture. I for one have helped out to many people in the past, not just in Atari circles, had my work ripped off, stolen, even had some guys over seas take out a patent on one of my designs. So I am not going to fall into the commercial trap again.

All us 020/030 guys re-creating stuff get shot down for our efforts, simply because stuff was never open source before, and yet while I am lost in 100's of posts, I still can't figure it if apollo is open source or not. From what I can tell, its not. So that in itself is a contradiction. I don't see the point in creating any designs which would become obsolete when the "seller" decides to bugger off. That would be a huge mistake.

Said it before, send me this fancy new apollo core which is super fast and can work as a drop in replacement, I will test it. The core will have to be open source as people in the future need to be able to design stuff and add to it.

This is what I asked of Apollo couple years ago and you have my replies on that already. Personally I got the impression the whole apollo thing was just fake and some huge scam with no information other than how good it is. I don't move in Amiga circles so wasn't aware of anything else. Even so, my impression of apollo "team" is I don't want to deal with those people.

You yourself just seem to be doing nothing but posting endless posts on how good it will all be, one moment there is news, then its they are only working on Amiga stuff, which is it ?

Personally I will keep helping the hobby guys out, they help me out. Good team of people. no BS, just hard work and results.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:47 pm

exxos wrote:
1st1 wrote:The joke is, they are willing! You (the community here) not!


Its really laughable that you want help from the community to invest in apollo's design, and yet, wouldn't it make more sense for apollo to bring something to the table to aid in existing designs rather than slating their efforts and forcing vampire down everyones throat ?
itÄs not laughable what happens here, but it is about to cry. You know, Gunnar is a real nice huy to talk with. I understand, you are skeptical. But there is no reason for theis. I promise.

The door swings both ways for collaboration, its no use everyone in Atari world helping Apollo out which is all I seem to have seen so far. Also Apollo seems to be a commercial venture. I for one have helped out to many people in the past, not just in Atari circles, had my work ripped off, stolen, even had some guys over seas take out a patent on one of my designs. So I am not going to fall into the commercial trap again.
Their door is open. Yours is closed. Apollo is hobby project. Yes, there is the vampire board which is commercial, but Apollo core itself is hobby.

All us 020/030 guys re-creating stuff get shot down for our efforts, simply because stuff was never open source before, and yet while I am lost in 100's of posts, I still can't figure it if apollo is open source or not. From what I can tell, its not. So that in itself is a contradiction. I don't see the point in creating any designs which would become obsolete when the "seller" decides to bugger off. That would be a huge mistake.

- Apollo 68080 processor core stays closed source
- SAGA chipset will be open source as soon a definde milestone is reached
- All the suska based VHDL colde is open source and can be combined. You do not need to invent much, just check if the interfaces are compatible

Said it before, send me this fancy new apollo core which is super fast and can work as a drop in replacement, I will test it. The core will have to be open source as people in the future need to be able to design stuff and add to it.
68000 up to 68060 is also not open source. But well documented. You have the chance to speak directly to the developers of 68080. Some do already.

This is what I asked of Apollo couple years ago and you have my replies on that already. Personally I got the impression the whole apollo thing was just fake and some huge scam with no information other than how good it is. I don't move in Amiga circles so wasn't aware of anything else. Even so, my impression of apollo "team" is I don't want to deal with those people.
Apollo is not fake. If you spoke them a couple years ago, then you might have been just in too early project state. You should better talk today again with them.

You yourself just seem to be doing nothing but posting endless posts on how good it will all be, one moment there is news, then its they are only working on Amiga stuff, which is it ?
Oh, I did much today and in the past. Gunnar is now much more deeper into ST technology, he begins to like it's design as more he gets in. There are some peoples now consider seriously to jump on the already runnung train. So I did something. If you not, then you not. But then don't complain when it's there without bringing in your impulses. It might be very valueable if you would do. (but maybe not, otherwise "the others" also asked you)

Personally I will keep helping the hobby guys out, they help me out. Good team of people. no BS, just hard work and results.

That's what they do. It would be better for you to talk directly to them to get different ideas. I did today again.
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1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Maeke » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:39 pm

from what i can see, you are not proposing, you are imposing, it won't do, if these guys want to contact our gurus, they will do it themselves.

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby mikro » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:02 am

Having Charles here on AF was fun but this guy... it's becoming really annoying. 1st1, many have already implied that, your contribution to this thread is not desired.

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Maeke » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:11 am

Indeed, all you do is pestering us, not only won't it change our point of view but it'll make us reject yours.
You said what you think then you reject our answer, that's the best way to make us hate you and the project.
Now i'll expose MY point of view, indeed the 68080 core is a very powerfull concept, BUT it would be a waste to put it into an existing genuine computer. This computer will indeed be more powerfull, but it won't let the processor express it's full potential.
If you want the 68080 to be used in a tos compatible computer, you'll have to build the computer from scratch. It's like putting a ferrari motor in a wolkswagen.

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Ragstaff » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:06 pm

All this Vampire stuff is not really the discussion I had in mind when I created this thread. OK, discussion is organic, but it seems we're going into round #734 of the Vampire debate with low level details, history, character references... You are very passionate, 1st1, but please try to at least keep the context of this thread in mind when you talk about the Vampire. There are other places to defend/advocate that project.

The topic of this thread is about the splintered Atari / TOS platform (this is done by upgrades, mods, and also to be fair, by Atari themselves with all the models they released) and what opportunities there are to converge again at the hardware layer, even just a little bit. (There are already efforts to converge at software layer I would argue, but that is a different topic. But eg's are continued OS development, and things like patching games to work with hard disks, or fixing for other systems beyond ST)

There are few of us Atari people, and there are getting fewer, and I just feel it would be nice if someone develops a new piece of software, demo, or even with old software, that if it can run on more Atari's the better. The tiny amount of developers can have more focus on outcomes rather than compatibility and deciding which platforms to target. Maybe we could make it much easier to patch old software to work on more machines, even automate it, if hardware upgrades brought convergence to the whole platform.


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