Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:33 pm

Ragstaff: Some things in your example #1 are technically not possible. This is because you want them in VME. On the one side VME is the obvious solution. but a Blitter there can't adress ST- and TT-RAM and VME card can't be busmaster, it's only a "target" for CPU and mainboard blitter (if it's there). A (Super)Videl needs to have the compatible base adresses and shared memory architecture, VME adress range is different so it will behave the same as a (Super)Videl in Falcon, but on a different adress range (VME range), that needs rewriting of VDI and games/demos which would access directly.

An example you totally forgot for the drifting of the projects is that several peoples at the same time make their own CPU accelerators. It's nice to have this knowhow, but, why several different ones, why not one which includes the know how of all? Why not more cooperation for example also with the AMIGA community? They have already a lot of accelerators which in theory also could run in ATARI without large changes (just changing some timings and glue logics, and maybe mechanically different board layout). Currently I am trying to check with the developer of Furia for A600 (100$ costs, 68EC020-33, already includes "Alt RAM") if it is possible to adapt it to STE and Mega STE, no answer yet, just got his email adress and sent mail. And the Apollo 68080 team is willing to give support to adapt Vampire to ST platform for the future (as soon they have finished Amiga developement, there are still a lot of points open). Vampire in ST would (will! with or without your help! sooner or later.) solve a lot of questions regarding speed and graphics capabilities on the Atari platform. But instead of give them support I was heavily insulted in this forum for this idea.

exxos: Nobody wnats FPGA, that's also my experience here from Apollo discussion. Even EmuTOS, MiNT, Calamus (does not run on Firebee!) and Aniplayer (without sound yet, but it plays B&W mpeg videos with it) runs already onto it using an Amiga. An Amiga, what a shame, what a happyness! "Real Hardware" is nice, but most of the "real hardware" is no more produced, you have to rely on the "new old stock" or "second hand" market, not a reliable source, and you can't do much bigger steps ahead some guys already did 25 years back in time, the max you may archive on a 1040 would be a PAK 68/3 plus FRAK plus IDE interface plus (second hand!) ISA graphics card, nice and monstrous big, original box can't be closed, but veeerrryyy far away from what would be possible by just helping the Apollo team to get Vampire to fly in ST.

Joska: You mean the expansion port in Mega ST what you name "megabus"? this one is having just 24 adress bits, max 16 MB adressable space. That's no way for TT RAM. And it's 16 Bit Data bus only.

joska: Shifter and Videl compatible VHDL is already there, see MiST Atari core and Suska. Even SuperVidel and Firebee-enahnced-Videl is just VHDL. And all could be integrated into Vampire.

All: Vincent's work is very valuable, as I see for the moment it's the best chance to get a high speed TOS/MiNT/GEM hardware platform with enhanced graphics card. He may plans to implement SAGA fvdi driver in his EmuTOS fork. That means full hd graphics capabilities in 32 bit color depth on HDMI. That means a TOS machine running at about 90 MHz for now, capable of doing 1-2 instructions per clock, that means steps ahead of an overclocked CT60e, capable in doing SIMD (singe instruction multiple data) instructions on 64 bit data (called AMMX), fast like hell. The next fast ATARI compatible machine will be an AMIGA. Shame or happy?

But that's "only" hardware. The bad news is that ATARI platform support for Netsurf web browser is about to be wiped out of the project as nobody maintains it. https://listmaster.pepperfish.net/piper ... 03886.html
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby leech » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:49 pm

1st1 wrote:joska: Shifter and Videl compatible VHDL is already there, see MiST Atari core and Suska. Even SuperVidel and Firebee-enahnced-Videl is just VHDL. And all could be integrated into Vampire.

All: Vincent's work is very valuable, as I see for the moment it's the best chance to get a high speed TOS/MiNT/GEM hardware platform with enhanced graphics card. He may plans to implement SAGA fvdi driver in his EmuTOS fork. That means full hd graphics capabilities in 32 bit color depth on HDMI. That means a TOS machine running at about 90 MHz for now, capable of doing 1-2 instructions per clock, that means steps ahead of an overclocked CT60e, capable in doing SIMD (singe instruction multiple data) instructions on 64 bit data (called AMMX), fast like hell. The next fast ATARI compatible machine will be an AMIGA. Shame or happy?

But that's "only" hardware. The bad news is that ATARI platform support for Netsurf web browser is about to be wiped out of the project as nobody maintains it. https://listmaster.pepperfish.net/piper ... 03886.html


Very ironic, considering how close the Amiga chipset was to being an Atari computer. I'm all for a universal platform to be finally used between the two.

Hmm, we really should find someone willing to maintain the Atari fork of netsurf, since it seems to be the only currently viable browser, right? None of the others are open source, or far enough along to be useful?

Though I would mainly use netsurf on my falcon to download software instead of having to use wget and type in the URL... Then again, I only have to do that because at some point in time I broke my NFS mount and haven't had time to fix it.

But I'm sure others would use netsurf more, not everyone has their falcon connected to a monitor right next to their main computer.

On the software side, I would still like to see EmuTOS become as nice as TOS 4.92 and beyond, then see if we could get someone behind the project to burn ROMs for real hardware so we can have a more universal TOS. Not sure if that is in the pipeline or not.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby joska » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:31 pm

1st1 wrote:Joska: You mean the expansion port in Mega ST what you name "megabus"? this one is having just 24 adress bits, max 16 MB adressable space. That's no way for TT RAM. And it's 16 Bit Data bus only.


I mean Mega ST expansion port, yes. And there is no reason why you can't use that with 32-bit cards, just add a second connector with the additional address- and datalines. Then you could use both legacy (16 bit) and new hardware on the same accelerator.

1st1 wrote:joska: Shifter and Videl compatible VHDL is already there, see MiST Atari core and Suska. Even SuperVidel and Firebee-enahnced-Videl is just VHDL. And all could be integrated into Vampire.


Yes, I know these. I have both MIST and Firebee. MIST is a great achievement, but it is a "last gen replacement" and not capable of running a fast machine. The Firebee is fast, but compatibility with legacy software is very poor. Vampire is very promising though. Maybe it could be my next machine.

1st1 wrote:The next fast ATARI compatible machine will be an AMIGA.


It will not be Atari compatible, it will be TOS-compatible. There is a very big difference.

1st1 wrote:But that's "only" hardware. The bad news is that ATARI platform support for Netsurf web browser is about to be wiped out of the project as nobody maintains it. https://listmaster.pepperfish.net/piper ... 03886.html


This illustrates the situation well. There's still a lot of software development going on, but mostly in the scene community. And they don't develop GEM-applications :) On the "other side" there's a lot of development on OS stuff (EmuTOS, MiNT) which is very good, but what brings the platform forwards are usable applications. And there's far between any new development there.

We should let Donald Trump settle this. Nobody knows Atari like Donald Trump!
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Faucon2001 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:32 pm

joska wrote:[lWe should let Donald Trump settle this. Nobody knows Atari like Donald Trump!

Sure, it will be great, fantastic. He can build a wall to protect Atari from bad PC, bad Mac and bad Amiga invasion, and they will pay for it. And he will close all the Chinese factories and make Atari great again. Sure, it will be incredible and that's true. Mua ha ha ha ha. ;-)
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby wongck » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:38 am

And take at look at the prices. Just take a look at that expensive accelerator add on.
Look at ebay, look at aminet, take a look at Alibaba.... over there the Falcon is over $1000.
No way he is paying that price. He won't.
He will meet the sellers at the oval office and negotiate for a lower price.

After that he would meet with the big software house, those big boys will hire so many software developer
and will produce more software for the Atari than past 8 years of the previous administration.
He will take back the software jobs from India, China, Japan, Portugal, italy, Greece and Spain.
And the quality will be better than the ACA software.

Mua ha ha ha.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Faucon2001 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:51 am

I have only one thing to add : Atari 1st !
.... and Amiga 2nd ;-)
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby DarkLord » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:51 am

1st1 wrote: The next fast ATARI compatible machine will be an AMIGA. Shame or happy?



I'll never buy one. 'Nuff said.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:49 pm

DarkLord, so basically we agree. That's a shame for the whole community, and Vincent who does the developing of EmuTOS on Amiga is our hero.

It shows the flexibility of our operating system. They (the Amiga community) is not able to transform their OS to run on the ST series. We are more hardware independend than they are. But looking closer to their OS, they have some nice features in it whicl also would be nice to have in TOS.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Cyprian » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:57 pm

1st1 wrote:But looking closer to their OS, they have some nice features in it whicl also would be nice to have in TOS.

MiNT is more than amigaos

moreover, you can run EmuTOS/MiNT on amiga, but cant amigaos on Atari due to amigaos is a bit ugly
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby christos » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:17 pm

Well another way to see it is that amogaos is optimized for the hardware ;)
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:27 pm

Cyprian wrote:
1st1 wrote:But looking closer to their OS, they have some nice features in it whicl also would be nice to have in TOS.

MiNT is more than amigaos


Amiga OS is partially object orientated, see the thing with the disk labels and the ASSIGN command. And multitasking is already smooth running on a 512 k machine. There are also some other nice things.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Cyprian » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:25 pm

1st1 wrote:There are also some other nice things.

like lack of memory protection support
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby wongck » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:04 pm

1st1 wrote: There are also some other nice things.

I don't have an Amiga... think I will never will have one, but I do have a living Amiga (wife now )
Guess one nice thing for those Commodore Amiga owners may be having an inanimate girl friend that do not grow old. :lol:

Seriously now.... I do like seeing the GURU MEDITATION rather than some cherry bombs. At least the GURU will tell you what's wrong.
(I am guessing it does the error messages in text).
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:50 pm

Cyprian wrote:
1st1 wrote:There are also some other nice things.

like lack of memory protection support

There is alibrary which supports this. You only need to copy them to lib: (thats a file path which is created by ASSIGN by default if AMiga boots...) and it's enabled. This thing with the libraries is also a nice idea.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby joska » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:27 pm

1st1 wrote:There is alibrary which supports this.


Do you have a link to this library? It would be interesting to see how they implemented this.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby shoggoth » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:12 pm

1st1 wrote:
Cyprian wrote:
1st1 wrote:There are also some other nice things.

like lack of memory protection support

There is alibrary which supports this. You only need to copy them to lib: (thats a file path which is created by ASSIGN by default if AMiga boots...) and it's enabled. This thing with the libraries is also a nice idea.


There's no AOS library which implements memory protection as defined by any semi-modern operating system. It's simply not true.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby joska » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:19 pm

1st1 wrote:Amiga OS is partially object orientated, see the thing with the disk labels and the ASSIGN command. And multitasking is already smooth running on a 512 k machine. There are also some other nice things.


Workbench/AmigaOS is quite clever. At least it was in 1985. Multitasking, data/code sharing and interprocess communication was light and quick. However, this also had a backside. Data/code sharing and interprocess communication was done by simply accessing other processes' memory. Calling the OS is done by simply looking up a function table. There is no functionality to separate system and application. Implementing memory protection in such an OS is... hard. The stability of the system is entirely left to the mercy of the applications. Any bug in any application can potentially cause catastrophic damage. Literally, as the Amiga hardware does not even allow to restrict hardware access to supervisor mode like we're used to.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby Frank B » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:38 pm

joska wrote:
1st1 wrote:Amiga OS is partially object orientated, see the thing with the disk labels and the ASSIGN command. And multitasking is already smooth running on a 512 k machine. There are also some other nice things.


Workbench/AmigaOS is quite clever. At least it was in 1985. Multitasking, data/code sharing and interprocess communication was light and quick. However, this also had a backside. Data/code sharing and interprocess communication was done by simply accessing other processes' memory. Calling the OS is done by simply looking up a function table. There is no functionality to separate system and application. Implementing memory protection in such an OS is... hard. The stability of the system is entirely left to the mercy of the applications. Any bug in any application can potentially cause catastrophic damage. Literally, as the Amiga hardware does not even allow to restrict hardware access to supervisor mode like we're used to.


They also exposed all the internal data structures of the exec kernel and libraries to user space code. Great for performance, not so great for abstraction.

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:25 am

shoggoth wrote:
1st1 wrote:There's no AOS library which implements memory protection as defined by any semi-modern operating system. It's simply not true.


I don't know where it is. There are several discussions on the Apollo forum about of importance to implement a real 68K PMMU into Apollo. And in one of these discussions someone mentioned these libs. He told that basically it works but a large number of applications are incompatible with it. You can please search for yourself here: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=0&z=cyJmBs
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby DarkLord » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:44 am

joska wrote:
Workbench/AmigaOS is quite clever. At least it was in 1985. Multitasking, data/code sharing and interprocess communication was light and quick. However, this also had a backside. Data/code sharing and interprocess communication was done by simply accessing other processes' memory. Calling the OS is done by simply looking up a function table. There is no functionality to separate system and application. Implementing memory protection in such an OS is... hard. The stability of the system is entirely left to the mercy of the applications. Any bug in any application can potentially cause catastrophic damage. Literally, as the Amiga hardware does not even allow to restrict hardware access to supervisor mode like we're used to.


I agree with this mostly Jo - but I have to say, at least on the A1000 that I had, anytime you
started formatting a floppy disk and tried to do anything else on the desktop, things became
grindingly slow.

Oh, and it seemed like (to me) that I had a lot of "guru meditation errors", although I have
to say that the error message alone was entertaining... :)
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby shoggoth » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:09 pm

1st1 wrote:
shoggoth wrote:
1st1 wrote:There's no AOS library which implements memory protection as defined by any semi-modern operating system. It's simply not true.


I don't know where it is. There are several discussions on the Apollo forum about of importance to implement a real 68K PMMU into Apollo. And in one of these discussions someone mentioned these libs. He told that basically it works but a large number of applications are incompatible with it. You can please search for yourself here: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=0&z=cyJmBs


No. The architecture itself is - by design - inherently incompatible with memory protection. This is common knowledge and has been since the dawn of time. It's not something you can cure by a patch or library. If your argument is of type "... in one of these discussions someone mentioned these libs. He told that basically...." you probably do not understand why this is the case.
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby joska » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:44 pm

DarkLord wrote:I agree with this mostly Jo - but I have to say, at least on the A1000 that I had, anytime you
started formatting a floppy disk and tried to do anything else on the desktop, things became
grindingly slow.


If I'm not mistaken the Amiga's floppy controller does not do the MFM encoding/decoding but leaves that to the CPU.

DarkLord wrote:Oh, and it seemed like (to me) that I had a lot of "guru meditation errors", although I have
to say that the error message alone was entertaining... :)


That's a consequence of the AmigaOS design features I described above :)
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:00 pm

joska wrote:If I'm not mistaken the Amiga's floppy controller does not do the MFM encoding/decoding but leaves that to the CPU.


No. Paula (the sound chip) does it. That is the reason why they can't use HD floppy at normal speed. Because if so they would have to double clock Paula to about 16 MHz, and then while HD floppy operation it would play samples in double speed. Their solution is to modify the floppy that it runs at 150 rpm (instead of 300) when operating in HD mode.
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1st1
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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby 1st1 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:07 pm

shoggoth wrote:No. The architecture itself is - by design - inherently incompatible with memory protection.



Ok, I found something, Ok it's Amiga OS 4, which I think is for PPC platform but...

http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/amigaos40.html

AmigaOS 4.0 Feature List

On August 7th, 2002, Amiga Inc. released the following feature list relating to AmigaOS 4.0 modules:
Exec Second Generation (Exec SG)

Exec is the AmigaOS kernel and was written in 68K assembly for AmigaOS 3.1. It has been rewritten in C, as ExecSG, for AmigaOS 4.


Hardware abstraction layer (HAL)
Virtual addressing (for automatic stack enlargement etc.)
Page-based memory handling (less fragmentation and more efficient)
Virtual memory
New library interface
Resource tracking and management
Optional memory protection
WarpOS backwards compatibility


Should I continue to search? When it's available there, why not in OS 3.9? Why not something for 3.1? Should I continue to search? This was just found in a bunch of minutes...
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Overall strategy for hardware mods, upgrades, clones

Postby joska » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:11 pm

1st1, AmigaOS 4 is for PPC. Look at the list you quoted, there are several features that address the problems with 68k AmigaOS and memory protection. That does not mean that this approach can be backported to classic Amiga (which Vampire is), because that would render all legacy applications useless.
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