IBM formatted diskettes?

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IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby 607 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:00 am

Hey, I'd like to buy some new floppy disks to put my stuff on as for legacy's sake I'd rather not write too much to my father's diskettes. Plus, most of them are rather full anyway.
I found two packs, one with unformatted diskettes, one with IBM formatted diskettes. What's the difference? :)

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby joska » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:24 am

The only difference is that you don't have to format the already formatted disks.
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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby 607 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:39 am

joska wrote:The only difference is that you don't have to format the already formatted disks.

Okay, so IBM formatted is actually what's desired on both Atari ST and Windows?

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby joska » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:13 pm

Formatted or not formatted, it really doesn't matter as you can format the disks from the desktop anyway. Just remember to buy DD (usually labelled "DD-DS") disks if you have a plain ST, as HD floppies can be a bit unreliable when DD-formatted.
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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby 607 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:48 am

joska wrote:Formatted or not formatted, it really doesn't matter as you can format the disks from the desktop anyway. Just remember to buy DD (usually labelled "DD-DS") disks if you have a plain ST, as HD floppies can be a bit unreliable when DD-formatted.

Oh, hm. That's a bit late, as I already ordered... what's the problem with the HD ones?

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby joska » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:57 am

The problem is that HD floppies really needs a stronger magnetic field when writing than the DD floppies. I have tested HD floppies on my ST's since I don't have many good DD floppies left. They work fine as DD's in my STE's (one with original drive and one with modified Sony drive from a PC) but I get lot of read errors on my Megas with original wide-button drives.
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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby 607 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:47 am

joska wrote:The problem is that HD floppies really needs a stronger magnetic field when writing than the DD floppies. I have tested HD floppies on my ST's since I don't have many good DD floppies left. They work fine as DD's in my STE's (one with original drive and one with modified Sony drive from a PC) but I get lot of read errors on my Megas with original wide-button drives.

Ah, okay, thanks for the explanation. I'm using an STE, though, so then it's probably fine. :)

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby tcat » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:57 am

Hi,

Just discovered this post and I wish to also share my experience.

I have quite a few Verbatim 2HD floppies, and only 6 of them are labeled `IBM FORMAT', and they do not 2DD format on standard ST drive, and have also R/W checksum errors, while all the others non `IBM FORMAT' do format 2DD on ST alright, and can be R/W, too.

`IMB FORMAT' ones can be formatted 2DD on my linux PC, can be read on ST machine, but cannot be written there.

I am lead to believe there must be something more to `IBM FORMAT' in terms of magnetic material, or some low level format?

Tom

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby czietz » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:23 am

As other people have already written in this thread: Do not use HD floppies in a DD drive. Even those you think you have formatted successfully in your ST will not work reliably. Regardless of whether it doesn't say "IBM format" on them.

As for your observation: For the disks that were previously formatted in a proper HD drive (the ones saying "IBM format") your ST's drive would have had difficulties even erasing the old magnetic information. Thus, you got instant errors. If the other disks were indeed completely unformatted, your ST's drive might have managed to record something. But the magnetic information is weak, the disks won't work reliably. BTST.

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby simonsunnyboy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:45 pm

czietz wrote:As other people have already written in this thread: Do not use HD floppies in a DD drive. Even those you think you have formatted successfully in your ST will not work reliably. Regardless of whether it doesn't say "IBM format" on them.

As for your observation: For the disks that were previously formatted in a proper HD drive (the ones saying "IBM format") your ST's drive would have had difficulties even erasing the old magnetic information. Thus, you got instant errors. If the other disks were indeed completely unformatted, your ST's drive might have managed to record something. But the magnetic information is weak, the disks won't work reliably. BTST.


Never had those issues. But I always recopied the floppies to themselves from time to time and I only used replacable disk images for any data written to HD ones as DD (such as demos or game menus).
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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby tcat » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:39 pm

Hi,

I have only a few 2DD diskettes, I keep them formatted 720K, 800K, 820K.

With `dd' command on linux machine, I copy an image needed to get across. On ST I duplicate the image from 2DD to 2HD floppy (I have many 2HD disks here) keeping original geometry and format. This seems to have worked for me for past few years.

This does not however work on those 6 labeled `IBM FORMAT', in fact all of my 2HD non-IBM floppies were used many years ago on PC/Mac.

`IBM FORMAT' remains mystery to me.

Tom

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:12 pm

tcat wrote:`IBM FORMAT' remains mystery to me.
Tom

Simply, that means floppy formats (multiple) used by IBM PC computers. Better said by PC DOS. In beginning it was 360 KB on 5.25 inch disks.
Then they went on HD 5.25 drives, and capacity was 1.2 MB. And finally on 3.5 inch HD drives - 1.44 MB.
What is common in all of them is FAT12 format, and rigid parameters as geometry, FAT length. In case of 360K it is 9 sectors/track, 80 tracks.
Atari TOS is much more flexible, and will accept diverse FAT12 formatted floppies, with diverse parameters, geometry. So, you can format floppy with some weird parameters like 8 sectors/track and TOS will still access it well.
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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby tcat » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:27 pm

Hi,

Yes TOS is mighty, although it borrows from CP/M, so does the MS-DOS.

I think what confuses my ST is that those few floppies labeled `IBM FORMAT', were factory pre-formatted, some low level info lingers on magnetic.

I have tried these...

Verbatim 2HD - DD OK
Maxwell 2HD - DD OK
NO-NAME 2HD - DD OK
Apple MacOS Installation Floppies 1.44 - DD OK
Verbatim 2HD factory `IBM-FORMAT'ed - DD r/w problems

EDIT, I should have stressed, factory preformat causing difficulties here.

Tom

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby grobda » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:34 am

might depend what drive you're using whether a HD formats as DD, but i've found them unreliable - maybe write ok, maybe work ok for a while, but become corrupt fairly quickly.

tbh with gotek drives available the urge to use 20+yo floppies in 20+yo drives is a bit masochistic.

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Re: IBM formatted diskettes?

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:30 pm

tcat wrote:Verbatim 2HD - DD OK
Maxwell 2HD - DD OK
NO-NAME 2HD - DD OK
Apple MacOS Installation Floppies 1.44 - DD OK
Verbatim 2HD factory `IBM-FORMAT'ed - DD r/w problems
EDIT, I should have stressed, factory preformat causing difficulties here.
Tom

Problems are certainly not because IBM-FORMAT. May be low quality media. Later verbatim floppies were very poor quality. If you can not format them on Atari flawless, best to trash them.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.


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