Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

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Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:24 pm

I just bought NEC 1970NXp (p stands for PVA panel) and it works GREAT with Falcon. It display all resolutions in all demos!

I have question regarding Falcon Video port and detecting attached monitor (pins M0 and M1). If we look at table:

Code: Select all

M1   M0   Monitor
 0    0   ST monochrome
 0    1   ST Color
 1    0   VGA
 1    1   TV

more info: http://www.sarnau.info/static/files/Fal ... tation.pdf page: Hardware.15

What is the difference between "ST Color" and "TV mode"? ? Is there ANY difference how Falcon handle these two modes or are they 100% same?
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby SoundDoctor » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:03 am

Hi Calimero,

The TV Mode is Composite Video and Modulator. Composite Sync/Video is present on Pin 12.

I have never done a test but I think if you have either a VGA or any resolution ST monitor connected then either or both M1 or M0 will be pulled low then the Composite Video and Modulator will have no output. If you have no VGA or ST type of monitor connected then both M1 and M0 are high so Pin 12 and the modulator will be active.

Drag your TV over to your Falcon and give it a try.
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby exxos » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:24 am

I would like to know what the difference is on these also. I have some falcon video adapters in the making which a jumper for the M options. So I will try it out once the project is finished and post back my results :)
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:16 pm

SoundDoctor wrote:Hi Calimero,

The TV Mode is Composite Video and Modulator. Composite Sync/Video is present on Pin 12.

I have never done a test but I think if you have either a VGA or any resolution ST monitor connected then either or both M1 or M0 will be pulled low then the Composite Video and Modulator will have no output. If you have no VGA or ST type of monitor connected then both M1 and M0 are high so Pin 12 and the modulator will be active.

Drag your TV over to your Falcon and give it a try.

I do not have TV to try TV modulator but I can confirm that there is no Composite Sync if pin 18 (M1) is grounded!
So this is only difference? :)
If M0 or M1 are grounded there is no signal on Composite Sync pin 12, and probably there is no signal on TV modulator output? Quite strange decision...

Anyway, I made video of showing Falcon hooked to Commodore 1084S over composite cable and in same time on NEC 1970NXp connect over VGA cable. Falcon is booted with M1, M0 high (NOT grounded, TV mode). Here is sample image (I will upload video later), desktop is in overscan mode (768x480px):
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:41 pm

btw exxos, proper title for this thread would be: "Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors".

In meantime, here are some links to different monitors hooked to F030 running 15KHz mode:

Dell U2412M (not so good, can not display variations of 15KHz signal) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vloo7nwL56U
Dell 2410 (looks good) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6-kA3MeIo
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby SoundDoctor » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:29 pm

Hay Calimero, nice table lamp! Move that ugly monitor out of the way so we can have a proper look at it ;-)

So the tech document should really read:

M1 | M0
_1_ | _1_ TV and VGA
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby SoundDoctor » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:49 pm

Here's the thing though Calimero, maybe you should measure the temperature of the Videl chip if you are driving both VGA and the Comp/Modulator lines at the same time. Just a thought.

If you have a multi-meter with a thermistor probe you could see if there is a significant difference driving either or TV/VGA and both simultaneously. They must have had a reason for cutting theTV outputs if VGA is attached.
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:19 pm

SoundDoctor wrote:Hay Calimero, nice table lamp! Move that ugly monitor out of the way so we can have a proper look at it ;-)

So the tech document should really read:

M1 | M0
_1_ | _1_ TV and VGA

no, tech doc are good. I disconnect M0 and M1 BEFORE Atari VGA adapter so what you see on my photo is RGB 15KHz resolution on both monitors! I use VGA cable but signal is 15KHz. And Commodore 1084S is connected with custom made composite sync connector. This is my custom made adapter (note that BlowUp is not active! I just use it because it is easy to solder wires on in :))
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby SoundDoctor » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:37 pm

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.

That does make the M1 and M0 settings for TV cutting the Comp Video signal an odd decision unless it is to do with the internal termination.
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:46 pm

and here is video of NEC 1970 NXp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoLnpnUhlGY

This video show Atari Falcon030 computer set in RGB mode (15KHz) showing picture on Commodore 1084S monitor and in same time on NEC 1970NXp since NEC support 15KHz input signal (I used ordinary VGA cable, I just disconnect PIN 19 (M0) for detecting VGA display)!

Sorry for shaky video; I recorded it from hand with iPhone.

Desktop is set to 786x480 pixel (overscan mode). As I change resolution on Falcon desktop you will see that NEC adjust it's own resolution but it will manage to show every Falcon 15KHz desktop resolution.

You will also see demo "Joint Venture" running on both monitors (starts at 2:00) in parallel so you can see difference between proper RGB monitor such is Commodore 1084S and LCD Nec. I choose demo "Joint Venture" because there is lot of screens with custom Videl resolutions. Nec show all screens almost perfectly except few screen not being centred (3D tunel, still images...) and screen "RELITY.SYS CORRUPTED" does not have fade effect (?!? how this is even possible? :D). Otherwise, NEC is almost perfect: colors on this PVA pannel are great! Black is also great (but there is light bleeding, visible in dark, but I do not mind). Resolution changing is very fast, there is no annoying messages from monitor about wrong resolution... Picture control are also good, monitor save setting for every resolution. Only thing that is missing is maybe "smoothing" option, for smearing pixels in low resolution. Some EIZO monitor has it, but I see that Amiga people complain that on EIZO monitor you can not turn off monitor message about wrong resolution in 15KHz mode...

Hope you enjoyed, I will release few more video of NEC 1970NXp in 15KHz mode. btw, VGA mode on Falcon is flawless!
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby SoundDoctor » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:41 am

very nice.
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Atari030 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:16 am

I built a box with 19 pin pass through, VGA 15 pin and an RCA (comp out) connector. It works a treat. If I remember rightly it just toggles M0. It also works on my Asus LCD in both modes via the 15 pin VGA.

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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:40 am

Atari030 wrote:I built a box with 19 pin pass through, VGA 15 pin and an RCA (comp out) connector. It works a treat. If I remember rightly it just toggles M0. It also works on my Asus LCD in both modes via the 15 pin VGA.

it same thing as mine :)

What Asus did you use? We should add it to the list of LCDs that support 15KHz signal ;)
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Atari030 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:29 pm

Already on there. ;-)

I'm trying to find a 4x3 I can use now, problem is a lot of Australian models are region specific. The models are the same but the model numbers aren't. Trial and error, I plan to grab a couple of second handies over Christmas to experiment with.

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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:15 am

I just test NEC 1970NXp on Amiga 500 and there are missing few vertical lines! You can move entire image up/down via NEC menu but you can not stretch image vertically so there are few lines always missing (one and half line of text in CLI - it looks like around 16 lines...)
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:01 pm

Hi,
1970NX owners, did you see this: http://archive.espec.ws/files/NEC%201970NX.pdf on page 4-5 - SERVICE MENU? :D

In service menu you can adjust numerous parameters! On page 4-9 is eplanation how to fine adjust composite signal... I still did not try this options but I hope that I can adjust Nec 1970NX to display entire Amiga screen!
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Faucon2001 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:51 pm

calimero wrote:and here is video of NEC 1970 NXp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoLnpnUhlGY
This video show Atari Falcon030 computer set in RGB mode (15KHz) showing picture on Commodore 1084S monitor and in same time on NEC 1970NXp since NEC support 15KHz input signal (I used ordinary VGA cable, I just disconnect PIN 19 (M0) for detecting VGA display)!

I have a NEC 1970 NXp too and I made a VGA switch cable according to the wiki
http://www.atari-wiki.com/index.php/Fal ... sync_Cable

Code: Select all

Falcon 030 pin (DB19)      |VGA pin (HD15)
     Red                 1 | 1
     Green               2 | 2
     Blue                3 | 3
     Ground              5 | 5
     Red Ground          6 | 6
     Green Ground        7 | 7
     Blue Ground         8 | 8
     Ground             10 |10
     Ground             11 | 5 
     Hsync              13 |13
     Vsync              14 |14

I have left pin 18 up, and soldered a switch to Pin 19 for VGA (grounded) or TV (up) selection.

VGA mode is perfect. TV mode works also great for any resolution 40/80 columns non interlaced.
TV mode interlaced is shaking like hell and resolution is shrunk making the small fonts unreadable : unusable :(
I have tried to tweak NVRAM parameters, force TV monitor, change PAL or NTSC, adjust the monitor, vertical scale ... No improvement, even worse when NVRAM is set to TV only the first of every 2 pixels are displayed and repeated twice on the screen : terrific.

So something seems to be wrong with my cable I guess ; I have checked every connections and they are fine and connected like on the wiki. In previous post, I read about composite sync (pin12 on DB19). This pin is not connected on my cable.
Could it be the issue?
Were do you connect this pin on the VGA connector?

calimero wrote:Desktop is set to 786x480 pixel (overscan mode). As I change resolution on Falcon desktop you will see that NEC adjust it's own resolution but it will manage to show every Falcon 15KHz desktop resolution.

How do you set overscan mode from the desktop?
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Atari030 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:09 am

You will need one of the software or hardware video programs. Screenblaster or Videlity, something like that. I think you can use the Centek software too.

The LCD might not behave well in interlaced modes, mine certainly isn't great. After all they were designed for CRT's. You don't need composite sync, your cable looks right.

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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:17 am

let me think...

you do not need composite sync* for VGA (VGA does not have composite sync at all! You have separate horizontal and vertical sync for VGA). Your cable should be ok.

*I use composite sync for Commodore 1084s monitor...

TV mode interlaced is shaking like hell and resolution is shrunk making the small fonts unreadable : unusable

yes, interlaced TV mode is quite shaking (NTSC less than PAL mode).

For horizontal resolution you can make patern like this in attachment, load this picture on Atari and than adjust H.SIZE until all vertical lines are visiable (this will not help with interlacing but you will be sure that all Atari hotizontal pixels are shown on Nec)!

atartest.gif


---

For overscan, you need to manualy edit newdesk.inf http://cd.textfiles.com/atarilibrary/at ... BOOK/N.TXT
you will need calculator that can convert binary to hex...

---
EDIT: Nec 1970NXp for Atari 640x400 TV PAL interlaced resolution set mode 800x300px in 50Hz:

IMG_2314.JPG


and for same resolution but in NTSC it sets 680x226px in 60Hz (because of this picture looks bigger if you set correctly both resolution to display all pixel horizontal with mentioned atartest.gif picture. Picture is also less flickering in NTSC mode since monitor works in 60Hz mode):

IMG_2313.JPG
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Atari030 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:36 am

viewtopic.php?t=21829

Here is Videlity, it was pretty simple from what I remember.

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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Faucon2001 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:56 am

I have adjusted the monitor to the best I can.
The frequency on the monitor is not exactly 50 Hz like you but 50.2 Hz.
The flickering is still heavy as you can see in the video. In real, the frequency is 2 times higher than it appears in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIGzInc2XA8
Is it finally normal?

When I put the NVRAM to NTSC the screen is totaly screwed up 8O I have a French Falcon, may be the reason why ? Strange.
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby calimero » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:07 am

Faucon2001 wrote:I have adjusted the monitor to the best I can.
The frequency on the monitor is not exactly 50 Hz like you but 50.2 Hz.
The flickering is still heavy as you can see in the video. In real, the frequency is 2 times higher than it appears in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIGzInc2XA8
Is it finally normal?

normal. Same is with mine (I also try to record video of my Nec but iPhone can not capture interlacing truthfully!).

btw why would you use Falcon in RGB (15KHz) resolution anyway? I use it for games and demos. For desktop application I use it in VGA mode.
only reason I could think of is if you want to use true color (65.536 colors) in high res (640x400, or even overscaned...)? right? :)

Faucon2001 wrote:When I put the NVRAM to NTSC the screen is totaly screwed up 8O I have a French Falcon, may be the reason why ? Strange.

quite strange. What NEC say for resolution when you switch to NTSC? and do you have CRT to check how NTSC looks on CRT TV/monitor?


@Atari030 with Videlity you can set any resolution :)
but with editing newdesk.inf you can activate built in overscan resolution.
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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Atari030 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:23 pm

I'd forgotten that. :-) I did think overscan could be selected with Videlity, though. I knew you can't do it from the display mode selector which is kinda silly really.

Does 640x480 run out to 768x576 in overscan? Its been a looooong time and I guess it might be time to repair my Screenblaster.

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Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Faucon2001 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:43 am

calimero wrote:normal. Same is with mine (I also try to record video of my Nec but iPhone can not capture interlacing truthfully!).
btw why would you use Falcon in RGB (15KHz) resolution anyway? I use it for games and demos. For desktop application I use it in VGA mode.
only reason I could think of is if you want to use true color (65.536 colors) in high res (640x400, or even overscaned...)? right? :)

Thanks, so at least nothing is wrong with the Falcon and Screen. :D
Just for the story, I have this Falcon since Christmas and I am rediscovering it, 15 years after having sold my good old CT2 racked Falcon :wink:

Yes, I expected that TC 640x400 resolution would be usable with a multisync LCD, thinking that the monitor would do de-interlacing of each frame to feed the screen with a progressive scan image, but clearly that's not the case as each 1/2 frame is displayed one after the other and worst, not always aligned. So on top of flickering, the screen is jumping. Anyway, you're right, it's only for game and demos.
Do you think this could be improved using the GBS 8220? I have not seen any usage with the Falcon.

calimero wrote:
Faucon2001 wrote:When I put the NVRAM to NTSC the screen is totaly screwed up 8O I have a French Falcon, may be the reason why ? Strange.

quite strange. What NEC say for resolution when you switch to NTSC? and do you have CRT to check how NTSC looks on CRT TV/monitor?

For the following NVRAM parameter :VGA, PAL, 80 col, 16 colors
Newdesk.inf set to overscan, 768x480 desk resolution
The monitor is set on : 800x300 H 15,6Khz V 50 hz
Resolution is correct, but the iimmaaggee iiss sshhaakkiinngg.

For the following NVRAM parameter :VGA, NTSC, 80 col, 16 colors
Newdesk.inf set to overscan, 768x480 desk resolution
The monitor is set on : 680x266 H 15,6Khz V 59,4 hz
And the image is screwed

For the following NVRAM parameter :TV, NTSC, 80 col, 16 colors
Newdesk.inf set to overscan, 768x480 desk resolution
The monitor is set on : 640x240 H 15,6 Khz V 59,4 hz
The image is more stable, but hardly readable as pixels are missing.

Unfortunately I don't have any CRT monitor or TV at home, modernity has killed these big old dusty energy eaters :wink:

I am using Boot-Init CPX v 1.1 to set the parameters of the NVRAM. I am just wondering if it could be the issue.
What soft do you use to set your NVRAM? I never saw it. Where could I find it?
Philippe

Firebee, Falcon, STE, Aranym Box, Hatari Pi Box.
My music http://www.philippeworld.net/
My photography http://phil-67.deviantart.com/
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Atari030
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:14 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Falcon 15KHz (TV, RGB) capable flatscreen monitors

Postby Atari030 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:13 am

NV is NV, what you set it with shouldn't upset anything. Looks to me like it just doesn't like the higher refresh.

Here is Uwe Seimets offering;

http://www.seimet.de/atari/en/


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