Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, Greenious, spiny, Moderator Team

smoston
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:22 am

Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby smoston » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:50 am

For Commodore 64 there were extra cartridges for sound sampling and there was one called the sound expander which could do FM synthesis on a Yamaha OPL soundchip. STe can do sampling and tracking through DMA or YM. Can Atari do OPL type of synthesis too? Were there any OPL cartridges ever released back in the day?
There's a guide here for the c64 cart: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/sfx.html

There's a rough schematic of the OPL cart for c64:
http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/ ... fx-sch.gif

How hard would it be to make an OPL cart for Atari ST?
I guess the hardware would be easy but there are probably no programs available for writing the software.

Old PCs used to have soundblaster and ad-lib soundcards that could do opl, is it possible to use ISA cards with an Atari ST using some kind of adapter? That would simplify things, you'd only need a case, ISA adapter, and ??

YM+OPL+DIGIDRUMS would be beastly :-)

User avatar
dma
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:22 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby dma » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:26 pm

Actually, there's the FM Melody Maker cart, which is YM2413 based (according to this).
But it got its own output, then isn't mixed in the internal ST(e) sound system.

I would LOVE to see a ST tracker for it anyway, or at least some adaptable replay routine to be able to use it in a demo (for the "glory" of it, eh).

[edit] You can read about the cart here : http://www.stformat.com/stf04/pages_nx1 ... 04_111.jpg

And funny to read back ACE expectations about it :
The FM Melody Maker is, we are told, going to be supported by several soft-ware houses

Well no, it hasn't been.
Last edited by dma on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SRSS
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:00 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby SRSS » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:26 am

dose the STe have the ym2149 integrated into another chip idk?? for the ST It might be possible to pull out the ym2149 and replace it with an adapter board with a ym2608 and its DAC. the ym2608 has the ym2149 built into it so it should be sound compatible it would need a driver to use the FM and of coarse a tracker.
Atari 520ST
TOS v1.0

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:56 pm

Really like this idea, very much a FM fan!
Along these lines, there is a project for the A800XL, YAMari. It's still a prototype cart with no software support ATM. Toriman has some test code but it is of limited use, just some Atari Basic sound tests.
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/236077 ... /?hl=+opl3
http://atari.neostrada.pl/yamari/yamari.html

In my mind the ST is better suited to the OPL3 due to the speed advantages over the 8bit systems, but the ST's cart port is more of a pain. I have done some research on writing to the port, and mapping the OPL's memory ports shouldn't be too difficult.
For the driver and GUI, there is the Midibox OPL3 synth project to draw inspiration from, perhaps. As well as the many trackers that targeted the SB cards. I'm not sure how well this fits in but there is a native tracker project for the Sega Megadrive, in it's early stages but at least it is 68K code.

Of course, my biggest road block is the lack of experience with programming the 68000 and the ST :( I have done projects in 6502 and PIC assembly as well as some ARM C. So while I'll try to take on the driver code, it would most deff be a "learning exercise".

Also, I see the OPL3 as the 'King' but there are other chips that offer advantages. The YM2413 OPLL as used in MSX systems or the YM2612 OPN2 of Sega Megadrive fame. The OPLL is a feature reduced OPL2 and offers presets stored in it's ROM and the OPN2 offers a cleaner programming interface to the driver as well as an 8b DAC for software controlled PCM samples. Both chips have built in output DACs and drive audio directly so there is a reduction in parts. OTOH there are trade-offs, namely the reduction in polyphony compared to the OPL3.

So what say you, is there any interest in moving this ball forward? I plan to build up some test hardware and some driver routines but have no timeline ATM. I would like to see an Adlib Tracker for the ST; someday :)
Yogi

User avatar
SRSS
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:00 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby SRSS » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:00 am

I'm actually surprised a FM mod was never produced back in the day it really would have opened up the options for sound and game production on the ST.
I do plan on shoving a YM2608 in my ST one of these days! i love the ym2612 in the genesis/megadrive and the YM2608 is the full version and with the ym2149 core in it; it should still work with the floppy drive :D
There's a tracker in the works for the YM2612 in the Megadrive/Genesis written in 68k????? the Genesis/Megadrive's sound was coded in Z80 assembler. :?
Atari 520ST
TOS v1.0

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:04 am

SRSS wrote:I'm actually surprised a FM mod was never produced back in the day it really would have opened up the options for sound and game production on the ST.
I do plan on shoving a YM2608 in my ST one of these days! i love the ym2612 in the genesis/megadrive and the YM2608 is the full version and with the ym2149 core in it; it should still work with the floppy drive :D
There's a tracker in the works for the YM2612 in the Megadrive/Genesis written in 68k????? the Genesis/Megadrive's sound was coded in Z80 assembler. :?

Yes the Sega Gen brings back allot of fond memories. While I've read some notes on the 2608, no first hand experience. Was it used in arcade systems or keyboard synths? Does sound intriguing with the FM and PSG. I kind of want to stay mainstream with the thought as to the homebrew community. Systems that have a active development community; it's easier to find info and tools.

The Sega tracker is in the early stages, the project recently had a restart after a hard drive crash. I believe the UI is on the 68K and the sound driver he is using on the Z80. Here is a link to his thread:
http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/15355 ... ismd32xcd/
Yogi

User avatar
SRSS
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:00 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby SRSS » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:44 pm

It was It was notably used in the NEC PC-8801 and pc-9801 computers and im sure some keyboards and arcade machines too.
and besides the 6ch with 4 operators FM and 3ch PSG there's also a 8-bit ADPCM ch with a sampling rate between 2-16kHz and a 6ch drum kit in rom on the chip for a total of 16chs!! iv also seen some videos on youtube of sega genesis music being directly played on the chip.

Thanks for the link on the tracker i'm defiantly going to keep an eye on that :D I'v been making chiptune's using YM2612 VST in fruty loops studio and id love to get some of them on hardware!!! If you want to check out some of my chiptunes heres a link to my you tube page!!!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqoMuY ... _as=public
Atari 520ST
TOS v1.0

smoston
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:22 am

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby smoston » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:01 am

"Industry Standard Architecture (ISA) is a retronym term for the 16-bit internal bus of IBM PC/AT and similar computers based on the Intel 80286 and its immediate successors during the 1980s. The bus was (largely) backward compatible with the 8-bit bus of the 8088-based IBM PC, including the IBM PC/XT as well as IBM PC compatibles."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industry_ ... chitecture

Maybe ISA cards are already compatible. Need a case with some kind of adapter.

" It was also available on some non-IBM compatible machines such as Motorola 68k-based Apollo (68020) and Amiga 3000 (68030) workstations, the short-lived AT&T Hobbit and later PowerPC based BeBox."

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:25 pm

SRSS wrote:It was It was notably used in the NEC PC-8801 and pc-9801 computers and im sure some keyboards and arcade machines too.
and besides the 6ch with 4 operators FM and 3ch PSG there's also a 8-bit ADPCM ch with a sampling rate between 2-16kHz and a 6ch drum kit in rom on the chip for a total of 16chs!! iv also seen some videos on youtube of sega genesis music being directly played on the chip.

It does sound like a cool chip. Being the parent of the YM2612, I would imagine that sharing songs and patches from the Sega would be very easy.

Thanks for the link on the tracker i'm defiantly going to keep an eye on that :D I'v been making chiptune's using YM2612 VST in fruty loops studio and id love to get some of them on hardware!!! If you want to check out some of my chiptunes heres a link to my you tube page!!!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqoMuY ... _as=public

Very cool music, really like ZUN and Sandstorm remixes. which VST are you using? Have you seen Aly James's FMDrive and SuperPSG?
http://www.alyjameslab.com/alyjameslabfmdrive.html
These are cool because they also allow communication with Littlescale's interface HW (but getting the HW is bad, there are orders still pending 3 years later)
http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/562/
http://little-scale.blogspot.com/search ... %20genesis

Here is another project that I just found, Re-Birth. The aim is a soundchip USB soundcard sort of thing, to allow retro PC emu's and trackers to use real HW.
http://ym2203.com/rebirth/?page_id=87
Yogi

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:40 pm

smoston wrote:"Industry Standard Architecture (ISA) is a retronym term for the 16-bit internal bus of IBM PC/AT and similar computers based on the Intel 80286 and its immediate successors during the 1980s. The bus was (largely) backward compatible with the 8-bit bus of the 8088-based IBM PC, including the IBM PC/XT as well as IBM PC compatibles."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industry_ ... chitecture

Maybe ISA cards are already compatible. Need a case with some kind of adapter.

" It was also available on some non-IBM compatible machines such as Motorola 68k-based Apollo (68020) and Amiga 3000 (68030) workstations, the short-lived AT&T Hobbit and later PowerPC based BeBox."

Not sure about soundcards but there is a ST project for a network card adaptor (didn't bookmark it when I was looking but it's out there).
I have also seen a Adlib card (8b ISA) to Parallel port project, using a PIC uC to simulate and drive the ISA buss. http://www.raphnet.net/electronique/adlib/adlib_en.php
So it seems workable but would need some software.
Yogi

User avatar
SRSS
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:00 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby SRSS » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:57 pm

Thanks for stopping by my youtube Channel :D
I'm using YM2612 VST its not a bad synthesizer for free iv seen FMDrive and SuperPSG i havnt tryed them though because they arnt free
heres a link where i got my VSTs from the ones i use are at the very bottom of the list
https://woolyss.com/chipmusic-plugins.php
Atari 520ST
TOS v1.0

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:46 am

SRSS wrote:I'm actually surprised a FM mod was never produced back in the day it really would have opened up the options for sound and game production on the ST.
I do plan on shoving a YM2608 in my ST one of these days! i love the ym2612 in the genesis/megadrive and the YM2608 is the full version and with the ym2149 core in it; it should still work with the floppy drive :D
There's a tracker in the works for the YM2612 in the Megadrive/Genesis written in 68k????? the Genesis/Megadrive's sound was coded in Z80 assembler. :?

So I ran across this Spectrum project that is very close to your idea, don't know if you were aware (I had never heard about it) Turbo-Sound FM http://velesoft.speccy.cz/turbosound-cz.htm
The FM design is half way down. This is what TFM MM was written for :) of course it isn't a direct drop in but could be modified. Depends on the mem mapping on the ST. Would need to know how the YM is mapped; looking for a free address to map a register (for controlling the dual 2603 setup). A single 2608 may be a better fit
Yogi

User avatar
Stefan jL
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby Stefan jL » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:53 pm

I made a video of FM Melody Makes software playing the demonstration songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlnmBooZZY



It uses a YM2413 wich is the lowest line of Yamahas FM soundchips, all voices are preset in the internal ROM except for one wich allows the user to make own sounds.
This is basically like the FM-Pak cartridge for MSX computers, also the Japanese version of Sega Mastersystem has this sound chip.

Image

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:27 am

That looks fun, thanks for posting!
The YM2413 is a cool chip, no doubt. It was also used (well, a version, the VRC VII) in a Nintendo Famicom cart, LaGrange point by Konami. It does have the limitation of the pre made patches but that also makes programming easier and sounds pretty good.
I've been searching a bit but couldn't find any info on the cart design or any docs on programming; would like to rev-eng a repo cart. I assume you have one, can you tell if it has two YM's or just feeds the Rhythm to one channel and Melody to the other for the 'stereo'?
Yogi

User avatar
Stefan jL
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:24 pm

It does only have one YM chip.

Image

Image
Image

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:47 pm

Oh thank you so much Stefan jl. Interesting, seems like a custom YM2413 version, at least the marking are not standard. There doesn't seem to be any support logic to deal with the ST's Read only port. Could have a different patch set like Konami's VRC7 Nintendo cart.
http://www.museo8bits.com/wiki/images/6 ... pinout.png
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/VRC7_pinout

Could you take a photo of the bottom? Knowing which cart edge pin are used, will help working out the interface logic.

The example ST interfaces I've found so far, latch the address bus on one bank access for the Write data and then use another Read to the other bank to complete the 'Write'. Programming wise, two Read accesses to the cart space to effect a Write.

Now this may be even simpler, as the YM only has two data ports to access it's internal registers. 8 adr bits mapped to data pins and 1 adr bit for the YM's AO pin, /WE strobe from the bank select. Maybe?

Thanks again, your photos are excellent :)
Yogi

User avatar
Stefan jL
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:53 pm

Here is the solderside photo :)

Image
Image

User avatar
bear
Atari freak
Atari freak
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:44 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby bear » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:15 pm

Very cool and interesting subject!

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:09 pm

Awesome sauce!! Many thanks !!!
Tracing the top and bottom tracks, I come up with this mapping:

Code: Select all

YM2413 pins               Cart edge
1 GND
2 D2                            32  A3
3 D3                            30  A4
4 D4                            27  A5
5 D5                            25  A6
6 D6                            23  A7
7 D7                            21  A8
8 Xin                         
9 Xout
10 A0                          24  A9
11 /WE  tied to GND
12 /CS                         31 ROM Sel 3
13 /IC tied to Vcc
14 MO to OpAmp
15 RO to OpAmp
16 Vcc
17 D0                          36  A1
18 D1                          34  A2

Of course I can't see the routing under the IC but feel confident this chips pinout is the same as the YM2413. From what I can see, I could route the IC to the cart edge with the above mapping.

Well, now to layout a card edge adaptor board and do some prototyping :)
Yogi
Last edited by yogi2015 on Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
farvardin
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby farvardin » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:34 pm

it's a pity they didn't use a real OPL chip such as the YM3812, because this YM2413 is so limited musically, with its predefined sounds. I think I still prefer the sound of the YM2149 ;)

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:23 pm

farvardin wrote:it's a pity they didn't use a real OPL chip such as the YM3812, because this YM2413 is so limited musically, with its predefined sounds. I think I still prefer the sound of the YM2149 ;)

Well, the Ym2413 does have 1 user defined patch; so with a lot of register writes could get some custom sound out of it. There is a lot of MSX music that sounds very good and the Master System had some kick'n FM tracks also. Guessing it was a cost thing.

But I agree, there were so many better options.

Here is a mark up photo of how I think the component side is routed:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zm76qa4rf94bg ... g.JPG?dl=0

Yogi

User avatar
Stefan jL
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby Stefan jL » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:30 am

Yogi i checked your traces and they are correct :)

Indeed so are YM2413 a very limited soundchip, but maybe it is possible to rip the music from SMS and MSX games and make a music demo for the ST ;)

If having an new FM synthesis cartridge for the ST made so is probably OPL4 the best choice, it is used in the Moonsound cart for MSX and it says it is it's own CPU so it works on very slow computers... such as MSX in that case and then i think the ST should have no problem with it... unless the limited cartridge port of the ST causes problem.
http://www.faq.msxnet.org/opl4.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yCUB2Fn3cs

Image

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:57 pm

Stefan jL wrote:Yogi i checked your traces and they are correct :)

Indeed so are YM2413 a very limited soundchip, but maybe it is possible to rip the music from SMS and MSX games and make a music demo for the ST ;)

If having an new FM synthesis cartridge for the ST made so is probably OPL4 the best choice, it is used in the Moonsound cart for MSX and it says it is it's own CPU so it works on very slow computers... such as MSX in that case and then i think the ST should have no problem with it... unless the limited cartridge port of the ST causes problem.
http://www.faq.msxnet.org/opl4.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yCUB2Fn3cs


Thanks again, for the conformation with the routing, as well as all your other help. Will layout a repo cart based on this info.

The biggest plus with the YM2413, for me, is there is ST software already. FM Melody Maker prg is not the best but it is here, now. So.. baby steps. OPN2 or OPL3 both are good and I have chips and boards on hand to prototype with, so next steps.

OPL4, OMG! too cool. Never really knew anything about this chip, just that it was 'enhanced' OPL3 (in the US, never saw the MSX, let alone the Moonsound till poking around on the Web). The wavetable synth is fantastic; and not ST CPU based. For me with a 1040 STFM, the thought of so many digi channels as well as OPL FM is too much to hope for. Will have to do more research with the Yamaha docs, thinking the FM part should be straight forward (well, as 'straight forward' as FM can be).
Yogi

yogi2015
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby yogi2015 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:44 am

So I've been working on a Melody Maker Redux with a few enhancements. Added a 2 channel Panning mixer to allow the ST's audio to be feed in and mixed into the stereo field. The YM's MO audio is also pan-able and the RO is center on both output channels.
The current board is a prototype for testing. It has a separate ST card edge to 40pin section and the YM synth; easy to cut apart. The test run will be with OSH Park (3 copies) and for my own testing needs. I plan to leave one board intact and jumper from the 40pin to the YM header; the other two will be separated. SO I will have two cart converters for other proto projects (OPL3 maybe) and two YM synths for projects on other compys (A800 or TRS-80).
Anyway, once it checks out, will adapt to a integrated FM Melody Maker board design. Plan to share on OSH for any that want to build.
Here is a preview,
ST_FM v0.2.2 BRD.pdf

ST_FM v0.2.2 schema.pdf

Yogi
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
soviet9922
Atari maniac
Atari maniac
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: Yamaha OPL on Atari STe?

Postby soviet9922 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:41 pm

Find this idea very interesting, this was and continue to be done on the zx spectrum.
The YM is replaced using the turbo sound card
Image
Is a drop in replacement for the YM it should work on the atari, but software have to be develop.
Its 100% retrocompatible on the AY music, i have tis one on my pentevo, also the master system on japan use this chip.
Even you can do YM stereo songs 6 channel, have dual YM2149 chips on it.


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests