4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:29 am

qq1975b wrote:maybe a silly question...but is it useful yo compare it against an Atari Mega Ste at 16MHZ?

Of course it's useful, if you can understand how things work - influence of cache, it's size, etc.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:35 am

I can't remember, but does TOS104 support alt-ram or is it only TOS206+ ?
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby alanh » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:36 am

Only tos 206
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:41 am

Here is little better test proggie, with source again:
MEMSPT.ZIP

Can select ROM TOS address space for test - what was likely problem by GagdetUK - should try with 2 ($FC0000) . Third option is RAM speed test. Larger memory area is involved in purpose to decrease influence of cache.
With standard 8 MHz you should get 244-245 with ROM and RAM test too.
On Mega STE at 16 MHz getting 220 , so only about 10% faster. What is result of avoiding cache influence. It is not possible to avoid it totally, since testing code is cached, and it gives that 10% speed-up.

Tested with QINDEX22.PRG too - what is what I used with Gamulator (not surprise, from same programmer) . On 16MHz Mega STE there are different speed-ups in tests. But scroll test gives only 12% speed-up, what is pretty much close to my simple proggy RAM test result - because by scrolling larger RAM areas are moved, so cache influence is low.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:18 am

nice :)

I doubt ST RAM will result in any faster speeds, not so easy to boost without serious hardware changes :(

RAM 236
ROM 183

Alt-ram would be a good test to have eventually. As I hope to get 16mhz CPU <> Alt-ram <> ROM.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby qq1975b » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:25 am

If I remember right...on Falcon is similar problem with ST RAM...So I suppose it can't go faster on ST that is older design.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:06 pm

183 for option 2 (ROM)
236 for option 3 (RAM)

Both at 16Mhz.
Last edited by GadgetUK164 on Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:23 pm

Strange results with 16 MHz by GadgetUK . Probably because not Alt RAM was tested, just ST RAM.
Test with added Alt RAM:
MEMT2.ZIP

MEMSPT2.TOS option 4 tests Alt RAM speed at address $400000 (4MB) .
There is MEMT4.TOS - it is only for TOS 2.06 - tests 4 64KB sections of it separately, because I find strange that speed is not much better than at 8 MHz, so to see about does all ROM sections work at same speed in 16 MHz mode .
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:56 pm

GadgetUK164 wrote:183 for option 2 (ROM)
273 for option 3 (RAM)

Both at 16Mhz.


Thats odd , so seems like RAM is running faster at 16mhz but ROM is the same.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:13 pm

I know lol, very strange! Only difference was I had Blitter enabled for those tests - can't see how that would be relevant?

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:16 pm

That RAM test - it apparently tests Alt RAM? - Do I even have Alt RAM? I thought I just had STRAM? That might be why the speed seems quicker there? I've just got 4Mb Marpet in here connected to the MMU and Shifter so I cannot see how my RAM would be any faster.

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:20 pm

Please see above - I've re-tested and its 236!!! Not sure how it displayed that other value before, I had run a few other tests and not rebooted - maybe that was messing something up.

That would suggest ROM and RAM speeds between 16Mhz and 16Mhz with TOS are the same?!?!? I don't quite understand how that's possible, unless something is held up waiting as a result theres no net speed gain (wait states somewhere)?

EDIT: Talking about ROM speed here - How can the system not be faster when TOS ROMs are accessed at 16Mhz, why doesn't that translate into a speed increase? If the CPU addresses in half the time, then reads the data pins in half the time, where does that speed gain go to? Is it because the next instruction is RAM based and wait states dictated by the shifter mean that there's a load more idle time than normal?

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:31 pm

One theory I have just come up with is that maybe RAM access is timing aligned via the MMU and shifter or something somewhere? So despite a ROM code instruction being executed at 16Mhz, perhaps theres a forced alignment delay there on accessing the RAM? I could be talking crap here, I am just trying to visualize in my head the sequence of events and why faster ROM reads wouldn't translate into detectable gain.

EDIT: That kind of makes sense to me now, although I could be wrong. I've not got much experience with the 68000 and its op codes, I am guessing that if say you had an instruction to store something in RAM, the access to the ROM is at 16Mhz, the fetch loads the instruction, the CPU starts to process the instruction, the instruction specifies a destination of RAM, the CPU then asserts (drops to 8Mhz again) and WAITS for the RAM, possibly 50% wait time (ie. half of the 8Mhz cycle) incurred here? and you get no speed increase at all? Maybe this is why cache was added on those boards as well, because that's the only way a faster ROM might benefit, where the read from cache running at 16Mhz produces an actual gain?

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:51 pm

Maybe it was the blitter causing the different results ? It seems your figures now match mine, so that means again, 16mhz ROM isn't giving any speed boost, and the only speed boost is due to the 16mhz cpu. If this is the case, then the speed test figures are tainted by cpu speed not ROM speed :roll:

I don't know much about TOS functions, though for example a GEM window which might display some text or options, that data must come from RAM, unless its a default box which is all held in TOS. I guess a dialog "OK" box, would only access rom, and a dialog box with options like tick boxes etc would need to read RAM to see what the options are. So while TOS may run at 16mhz, it has to wait to get values/settings from RAM. I still would have thought there would be a TOS speed boost somewhere.

Though this is why I want to test alt-ram, as at the moment, TOS and CPU are 16mhz, and then RAM is still 8mhz. Ram is the bottleneck. So if we can replace RAM with alt-ram we can run CPU,TOS,RAM at 16mhz. Thats my current theory/idea at the moment.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:07 pm

I am not sure how alt RAM works, but assuming it's located at address that doesn't interfere with MMU and shifter then I guess that would translate into full 16Mhz operation, but TOS would still be operating against STRAM wouldn't it? Alt RAM sounds like a good idea but how could we use it? I think it would be better to stick 4Mb RAM on a PCB, use some GALs and tri state data latches and whenever CPU writes to RAM address space, duplicate the write to the new 4Mb cache. Then when reading, hit the cache at 16Mhz, rather than wait for normal RAM. Problems here are where other hardware writes to RAM (DMA), and possible timing clashes related.

I am not sure what I've described is the same type of cache the 3rd party boards provided? I don't think they cached the full 4Mb RAM address space?

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:16 pm

Alt-ram operates directly off the CPU bus, not going via the MMU. Similar to ROM space, it isnt going via the MMU and GLUE does the decoding.

So the idea is, load programs into alt-ram, then the CPU can access alt-ram at 16mhz, and if using TOS then the CPU also has direct access to 16mhz ROM (does not use GLUE, GAL does decoding) really its a mini computer in its own right.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:53 pm

Are there any 3rd Party boards out there (Or maybe Mega STe) where the cache can be disabled in software? Just to work out if its the cache that shows TOS ROM improvement?

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:22 pm

Atarizoll already posted figures with cache, I think he said 10% speed boost. I don't think 16mhz TOS is showing any speed boost, it just seems to be the CPU speed which is giving the results. Cache is showing maybe 10% additional speed boost, but that is to be expected. Though cache is just fast ram for the CPU, Alt-ram will be fast RAM like cache anyway.

alt-ram will not have access to things like video RAM or DMA stuff. Though I guess a IDE type hard drive could be remapped to alt-ram to make use of full bus speed. Though that will need special hardware and software to be developed.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:09 am

How much speed-up cache gives depends from multiple factors: cache size and tested RAM or ROM area size in first place.
My first test program worked with small memory area, therefore cache gave big speed-up. Second used much bigger memory area (192 KB), so 16 KB cache in Mega STE was not much effective.
Some link about Marpet upgrade used by GadgetUK would be good - what type of cache it uses ?

Tests on larger ROM area by exxos:
RAM 236
ROM 183
It is much slower than in case of first test with short area . And because here no cache, I wonder why it is. Would be good to look with logic analyzer during test. Timings of test core are:
movem.l (a0)+,d0-d6/a1-a6 : opcode fetch - 8 T - from RAM (at 8 MHz) , 26x ROM read > 26x 4T, but at 16 NHz, so 26x 2T in fact, 1x ROM read + because bug in CPU > + 2T (at 16 MHz, still from ROM) .

dbra d7,loop - 12T, from RAM at 8 MHz .

At 8 MHz for ROM sum of all T states is: 8+104+4=116 (movem) + 12 (dbra) = 128 T states.
At 16 MHz should be: 8+52+2 (movem) + 12 (dbra) = 74 T states.

Speed gain should be 72 % ( 128/74), but it is only 28% (236/183) .
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:24 am

I think the 28% speed is down to 16mhz cpu only (not ROM speed), gadgetguy has 16mhz cpu and 8mhz TOS, and he has exact same numbers as me with 16mhz cpu and 16mhz ROM. I posted the timings before for the CPU clock and ROM CS, the ROM is working at 16mhz along with the CPU. So its really odd why no speed boost.

I took some results for GemBench4. One is all 8mhz just for a stock test, and the other is 16mhz with 16mhz ROM. If gadgetguy can do a test on his 16mhz board, it would compare to my results. Though it does not help when tests are not 100% on a stock machine. Even so, I already tested TOS104 with 16mhz CPU only and results were 99% identical. So it shows CPU speed is the factor in speed boosts, not ROM speeds.
st.jpg

PICTURE01.png


On the left is TOS104 - 16mhz CPU - 8mhz ROM, pasted on the right, is TOS206 16mhz CPU & ROM. Though overall, TOS206 results are slower. I think its because TOS206 is a more complex OS so it runs slower than TOS104 overall.

It could be useful if anyone has a STFM machine with TOS206 to run as a stock test as I only have TOS104 machine.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby qq1975b » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:13 pm

Is it Ok a Mega ST 2.06 UK TOS without blitter? I can do that if it is OK and compare it with a Mega 4 with 1.04 TOS to see if there is something different.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:35 pm

qq1975b wrote:Is it Ok a Mega ST 2.06 UK TOS without blitter? I can do that if it is OK and compare it with a Mega 4 with 1.04 TOS to see if there is something different.


I don't know much about the mega, it really needs to be 8mhz machine without cache to match a STFM.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby qq1975b » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:06 pm

The Mega is a 8MHZ machine without cache.
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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:18 pm

Yes, that Mega should give useful result! I think only Mega STe has 16Mhz + cache!

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Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby qq1975b » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:21 pm

Ok! I will do it this evening.

EDIT: Can anybody post what programs should I test?
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