4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, Greenious, spiny, Moderator Team

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:35 pm

8) 8) 8)
results.jpg


Hot off the press! First successful run of the CPU at 32mhz! This is just the basic CPU mod (not fast rom etc). So I am really pleased I have finally managed to break the 16mhz barrier and smashed over to the 32mhz zone 8)

There was some hacks involved :lol:
DSCN0961.JPG


The scores are as follows. This is 32mhz CPU vs 16mhz CPU and the additional speed boost for 32mhz on the right (diff).
res2.jpg


Of course its to be expected that 16mhz for GEM window for example jumped to 126% at 16mhz then at 32mhz did not give another 26% but 14%. Though as most of the tests are GEM related functions they will hide away around 10% speed boost until fast ROM is added with 32mhz.

I think it really shows what 16mhz vs 32mhz is doing on the ST. Of course ST RAM is the bottleneck as always. Though I did wonder about pushing faster speeds some time ago, but I think there is no point. A hypothetical speed of 64mhz wouldn't show much speed gain over 32mhz. In anycase, this speed will be awesome with fast rom and can't wait for it all to come together :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

User avatar
stimpy
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:47 pm
Location: Somerset, UK
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby stimpy » Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:59 pm

Netus-Bee,Repairs,Upgrades,EtherNEC,Eiffel

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:35 pm

stimpy wrote:Reminds me of my old project! :D

http://web.archive.org/web/200605020515 ... /index.htm


Cool :) I think a few people have experimented with this kinda stuff over the years, though nothing was ever released from what I can tell. There seems to be a odd few working on boosters of late. Though I am posting all my findings as I go along as I am sure it will help people who want to fiddle with 68000 series in the future :)

I am updating my main project page as I go along. Though probably more snippets of info in this thread.

http://exxos.www.idnet.com/IMPULSE/atari/last/16mhz/index.htm
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

User avatar
Frank B
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Boston

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby Frank B » Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:42 pm

joska wrote:
exxos wrote:I'm totally sure how the system works with loading stuff in alt-ram. Of course the video still works, but is still held in ST RAM. I've not had much to do with programming the blitter myself. I know you can set the address and data, so the blitter can access alt-ram. But it still needs to push data into ST RAM because that is where video ram is. So not really sure that running the blitter in alt-ram would do anything as it still has to load the data into ST RAM for the video.


It depends on how you've designed your board I guess. The blitter has the same address range as the CPU. So if you connected it to the same address- and data bus as the CPU it should be able to blit between ST-RAM and alt-RAM. But maybe TOS VDI itself is the limit.

This is different from e.g. a Falcon with a CT, Afterburner, Mighty Eagle or similar accelerators. In that case the fast-RAM is outside the blitter's address range.

Anyway, not very important I think. It would be of very little use.



I don't know. An extra 8 meg of blitable RAM would be nice!

rpineau
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:39 am
Location: California / USA
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby rpineau » Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:45 pm

I fully routed the Blitter address bus so it will be able to blit to/from the fast ram as it's within its address space and it should do so at 16MHz (if your Blitter supports 16MHz).

Rodolphe
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

User avatar
qq1975b
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 9:15 am
Location: Barcelona

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby qq1975b » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:09 pm

Impressive, Exxos!

But there will be any 68000 capable of handle this speed?

Is the 68010 a possible alternative to have an additional speed improvement at 16mhz? Or crashes more than improves speed?
Trying to learn...

User avatar
Frank B
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Boston

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby Frank B » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:35 pm

qq1975b wrote:Impressive, Exxos!

But there will be any 68000 capable of handle this speed?

Is the 68010 a possible alternative to have an additional speed improvement at 16mhz? Or crashes more than improves speed?



I tried a socketed 68010 and it barfed on HDDriver. I had to put the 68k back in.

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:52 pm

qq1975b wrote:Impressive, Exxos!

But there will be any 68000 capable of handle this speed?


I think 32mhz is the realist limit here.
qq1975b wrote:Is the 68010 a possible alternative to have an additional speed improvement at 16mhz? Or crashes more than improves speed?


This has been talked about before a while ago, its better to jump to the 020.
Last edited by exxos on Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

GadgetUK164
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:12 am

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:06 pm

Wow!!! Awesome!!! The question is how long can it run at 32Mhz before crashing?

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4381
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby joska » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:20 pm

exxos wrote:In anycase, this speed will be awesome with fast rom and can't wait for it all to come together :)


It would be even more awesome with fast-RAM :) You mention 64MHz - is this something that's possible? Because a 64MHz 68000 with fast-RAM would be incredible.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:24 pm

GadgetUK164 wrote:Wow!!! Awesome!!! The question is how long can it run at 32Mhz before crashing?


The ST has been on for over a hour, I have been running GB4 on it (well pressing test randomly as I have been going past) . Though its still switching into 32mhz mode while its sat there doing not a lot anyway. If it was going to crash it would do it pretty quick, or show signs of corruption at the end of GB4 tests. But all seems good so far :)

There was something I read that Motorola produce them and tested them at 40mhz, but they were stamped at 16mhz as they wanted to sell their next up CPU model, which wasn't as good value apparently. 16mhz to 32mhz is one serious overclock, I can only get about 4mhz more out of the TTL version before that messes up. So I am inclined to think the HC types are 32mhz parts anyway.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:31 pm

joska wrote:
exxos wrote:In anycase, this speed will be awesome with fast rom and can't wait for it all to come together :)


It would be even more awesome with fast-RAM :) You mention 64MHz - is this something that's possible? Because a 64MHz 68000 with fast-RAM would be incredible.


I don't think its really possible. Just 20ns of delay is enough to upset 32mhz operation. It takes 7ns for it to work. Though I don't think the CPU would clock that fast anyway. Even so the SRAM is hard to find in 5V form, and speeds wouldn't get much past 32mhz anyway. It was just speculation saying that the speed gain from 8mhz to 16mhz is a decent boost, but going higher to 32mhz is 3 times lower. I think 32mhz is as high as reasonably possible. It would be better to work on reducing bottlenecks elsewhere in the system than trying to push for higher speeds :)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4381
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby joska » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:50 am

exxos wrote:Please can people considering buying some things from my store, all these kits are funded by revenue generated from my webstore. I do not just pocket the cash like other people selling stuff, I re-invest the cash into dev-work. I just spent around £130 on some STE's and my pockets are not deep unfortunately.


I'm about to place an order, but before I do that - is the 16MHz booster (SIMPLE 16Mhz BOOSTER V1) still shipped with a 16MHz CPU?
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:04 am

joska wrote:
exxos wrote:Please can people considering buying some things from my store, all these kits are funded by revenue generated from my webstore. I do not just pocket the cash like other people selling stuff, I re-invest the cash into dev-work. I just spent around £130 on some STE's and my pockets are not deep unfortunately.


I'm about to place an order, but before I do that - is the 16MHz booster (SIMPLE 16Mhz BOOSTER V1) still shipped with a 16MHz CPU?


Yes, it still comes with CPU. I will change what it says on the store when I run out of them though anyway.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:01 am

Just got your order many thanks :cheers: I'm not far off the amount needed for the next PCB run, probably 2 more booster sales should just do it :)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

GadgetUK164
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:12 am

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:15 pm

With regards to ALT-RAM, is there any way the ST could use it from the get go? 32Mhz is mega exciting! Is there any way to include the required pull downs on the next PCB? How did you get the 32Mhz clock in the end, did you use a PLL or something?

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:31 pm

GadgetUK164 wrote:With regards to ALT-RAM, is there any way the ST could use it from the get go? 32Mhz is mega exciting! Is there any way to include the required pull downs on the next PCB? How did you get the 32Mhz clock in the end, did you use a PLL or something?


Not sure I follow what you mean about alt-ram ?

32mhz is the ST master clock, its generated with some transistors and the 32mhz osc next to the shifter. It then goes into the shifter and the shifter outputs 16mhz to the MMU. The MMU steps it down to 8mhz and 4mhz. The GLUE steps down to 2mhz and 500khz. So PLL isn't needed in this case.

There new PCB Rodolpe is working on is geared up to use the TTL or CMOS version of the chip. We are actually wanting to now run the new board at 32mhz now we know its possible :)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

GadgetUK164
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:12 am

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:01 pm

exxos wrote:
GadgetUK164 wrote:With regards to ALT-RAM, is there any way the ST could use it from the get go? 32Mhz is mega exciting! Is there any way to include the required pull downs on the next PCB? How did you get the 32Mhz clock in the end, did you use a PLL or something?


Not sure I follow what you mean about alt-ram ?

32mhz is the ST master clock, its generated with some transistors and the 32mhz osc next to the shifter. It then goes into the shifter and the shifter outputs 16mhz to the MMU. The MMU steps it down to 8mhz and 4mhz. The GLUE steps down to 2mhz and 500khz. So PLL isn't needed in this case.

There new PCB Rodolpe is working on is geared up to use the TTL or CMOS version of the chip. We are actually wanting to now run the new board at 32mhz now we know its possible :)


Awesome!!!! Fantastic!!! It would be awesome to use 32Mhz - I am wondering what improvement in some 3D type games like Castle Master, Driller, Frontier etc. 16Mhz didn't break anything really so hoping 32Mhz doesn't. That said, doesn't the 16Mhz HC chip have some op code differences? In any case, this is sounding like a totally awesome mod for the ST, especially if it has expansion to add 8Mb of Alt RAM as well =)

EDIT: regards ALT-RAM, I wasn't sure what if anything used it, but from what I understand TOS 2.06 supports it?

User avatar
qq1975b
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 9:15 am
Location: Barcelona

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby qq1975b » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:44 pm

Tos 2.06 supports alt-ram but a driver is needed too. That is my experience with Alanh's alt-ram for his IDE board and the MAGNUM +8 too.
Trying to learn...

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:05 pm

GadgetUK164 wrote:Awesome!!!! Fantastic!!! It would be awesome to use 32Mhz - I am wondering what improvement in some 3D type games like Castle Master, Driller, Frontier etc. 16Mhz didn't break anything really so hoping 32Mhz doesn't. That said, doesn't the 16Mhz HC chip have some op code differences? In any case, this is sounding like a totally awesome mod for the ST, especially if it has expansion to add 8Mb of Alt RAM as well =)

EDIT: regards ALT-RAM, I wasn't sure what if anything used it, but from what I understand TOS 2.06 supports it?


I saw a huge speed boost in castle master on 16mhz, so I think 32mhz will be awesome on it. The HC chip is just the cmos version of the 68000. Primarily it was just lower current consumption. Alt-ram on my Veloce really doubled the speed of the the system. Theres some little utils about to set the program flags to load in alt-ram, thats about it really.

EDIT: I think its only TOS206 and up which support alt-ram.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

rpineau
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:39 am
Location: California / USA
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby rpineau » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:07 pm

Alt-Ram is declared to the system using the Maddalt GEMDOS call present in TOS 2.06 and up. So you'll have to run a small prg in your auto folder to declare the Alt-RAM to the system. I'll write it .. it's super simple :)
Rodolphe
Falcon + AB040 + Eclipse PCI + ATI Rage VGA card + NE2000 Ethernec + HxC Floppy Emulator
MegaSTE 4MB + CosmosEx / 1040 STF for hardware dev
http://www.rti-zone.org/atari.php

User avatar
CiH
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1136
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Middle Earth (Npton) UK
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby CiH » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:32 pm

We'll have to start thinking of 3D games that might benefit from this.

I'll throw in Legends of Valour, it has a nice 3D world. :D
"Where teh feck is teh Hash key on this Mac?!"

User avatar
Frank B
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Boston

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby Frank B » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:00 pm

CiH wrote:We'll have to start thinking of 3D games that might benefit from this.

I'll throw in Legends of Valour, it has a nice 3D world. :D


Not a game but a future version of Maggie? Hint Hint :)

Frank

User avatar
exxos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4933
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:36 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby exxos » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:51 pm

I think GadgetUK did a lot of tests on games, so he probably knows which ones see a speed boost, I think he did a video on some games with the 16mhz booster.

I also suspect STzip and packers would gain a boost in speed also :)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - various clutter

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
http://ataristeven.exxoshost.co.uk/Steem.htm Latest Steem Emulator

GadgetUK164
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:12 am

Re: 4MB Upgrade & 16MHz Booster progress

Postby GadgetUK164 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:05 pm

exxos wrote:I think GadgetUK did a lot of tests on games, so he probably knows which ones see a speed boost, I think he did a video on some games with the 16mhz booster.

I also suspect STzip and packers would gain a boost in speed also :)


I think most are between 15 and 30% faster, it's more noticable on some games than others etc. For example, Gauntlet is still one of those games that seems slow, but I am hoping at 32Mhz that might change a little. Packing routines are significantly affected - anything using integer math. One problem is where a game engine has been written well already and is controlled by vblank timing etc - that will result in zero change, but for the most part ST games do seem to benefit from faster CPU, especially games that experience any kind of irregular frame rate or slow downs at 8Mhz. I suspect at 32Mhz it will really shift - especially after seeing the benchmarks you did there - the integer division is almost 400% faster =O The net result at 16Mhz is a lot of stuff just feels way smoother than it does at 8Mhz. A lot of games play more like they feel on the Amiga.


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests