ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Hippy Dave » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:13 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:Exactly, thanks. Atari machines had boatloads of professional applications *despite* the OS, the shitty documentation, the shitty development tools by Atari itself etc. Much like the Amiga, they were essentially closed machines, so they could never hope to withstand the test of time, as it was clear even back in the day. One point for all: networking. Apple had Apple Talk much earlier than the concept of networking was widespread; and you could use Apple Talk even on the lowest level Macs. As soon as Internet took hold, Apple readily migrated to it. On the TT030 we had Apple Talk ports...and no software BY ATARI to support it?! How LAME is that?
Atari found a niche with musicians as it had excellent software in that field, but in other fields like DTP, the Mac was the de-facto standard. This does not mean that Atari could not do it, but the Mac was simply more widespread, and it was backed by industry giants.

Correction:
Hippy Dave wrote: :mrgreen: Exactly, thanks. MACINTOSH machines had boatloads of professional applications *despite* the OS, the shitty documentation, the shitty development tools by APPLE itself etc. Much like the APPLE, they were essentially closed machines, so they could never hope to withstand the test of time, as it was clear even back in the day. One point for all: networking. Apple had Apple Talk much earlier than the concept of networking was widespread; and you could use Apple Talk even on the lowest level Macs * POWER USER *. As soon as Internet took hold, Apple readily migrated to it. On the TT030 we had Apple Talk ports...and no software BY APPLE to support it?! How LAME is that?
Atari found a niche with musicians as it had excellent software in that field, but in other fields like DTP, * POWER USER * the Mac was the de-facto standard. This does not mean that Atari could not do it, but the Mac was simply more widespread, and it was backed by industry giants.

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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:28 am

rabindranath72 wrote:As said before, Unix is a rock-solid OS. It's not by chance that it has become a standard by which all OSes are compared. It was designed by top scientists, not hackers.


Funny joke! :lol:

Unix started out as a simple OS to make porting a game from one minicomputer to another easier, its creators never once sat down and planned anything because to them it was just a hackjob. It only gained a userbase because AT&T were under court order to publicly release all computer tech they came up with for free. "good for the price" isn't saying much when it cost nothing.

Making an OS that has multiple user accounts and doesn't crash isn't an achievement. Even Microsoft have done that.

As far as Unix goes it's a pretty mediocre one, it's been 40 years and they haven't figured out "System Folder" "Programs" "User Files" for the directory tree? /usr/bin/sbin/gbin/X11/hme/mnt/wtf Why?

It's no wonder the chief uses of Unix are a) a web server, where the computer sits there and nobody interacts with it apart from to install updates, and b) writing newer versions of Unix. It's crap at anything else, unless you pull a NeXT and use it as a glorified task switcher.

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Silly_Pony wrote:Tell me again how TT030 missing features lower end machines have is a good thing.


These (joysticks, blitter) were gaming features.


Yes, exactly. It's 1991 or so. I've decided to upgrade from an STE to a TT.

Whoops, none of my stuff works with it. Might as well buy a cheap 386, keep the STE in the living room under the TV. Anyone want to buy a used copy of NVDI?


Eero Tamminen wrote:But the main reason why games didn't work on TT wasn't lack of blitter or STe joysticks, but the CPU being faster. Most games done for slow 8Mhz machines are so timing sensitive that they don't work properly on faster machines. Blitter & STe joysticks are irrelevant detail for this discussion.


Timing is far easier to fix than rewriting an entire codebase to avoid a chip.

This is likely why developers avoided STE enhancements. if I knew that Atari weren't committed to keeping features around, I wouldn't code for them either. Nothing but an evolutionary dead end.

Eero Tamminen wrote:Atari tried to diversify to multiple markets. Lynx & Jaguar consoles for gamers, ST & STe computers for home & gamers, Mega ST/e and TT (+ Stacy, ST Book and Atari Portfolio) computers for professionals and Atari Falcon computer for musicians, graphics people and for home.


This shows a lack of understanding of who buys computers for what.

I want a computer for my home. I want to do work on it, so I want the big screen, the fast processor, the nice keyboard.

I'm also going to want to play games on it. Don't decide I'm not allowed to.

Silly_Pony wrote:Still where is the "professional" Atari? If I am a business man I don't care if your computer looks arty like the TT. I want to know it has lots of slots and extra drive bays so my purchase can be kept up to date, even customized to do something specific.


Eero Tamminen wrote:Besides much faster processor and much better resolutions (1280×960 mono vs. ST/e 640x400, 320×480 with 256 colors vs. ST/e 320x200 with 16 colors), one of the main improvements of TT was support for fast RAM, and lots of it. While ST/es could be expanded only to 4 MB, TT could be expanded to 256 MB. Larger resolutions with larger amount of memory were much more important for business applications like DTP, than other features.


That misses the point. Again. How do I keep it up to date? Where is the video card slot? If this is a business computer, where is the slot to add Ethernet? You mean I have to choose between adding higher-colour graphics for my DTP work, or networking the computer? I lose some of the serial ports if I add either?

This computer, not so good for my business. I will buy a 386 instead.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby nativ » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:00 pm

My STe was far more usable than my Dad's Hp Vectra 386/25?

the 386 wasn't bad but it wasn't great a very stiff machine still much of a column display device harking back to the early 80's
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:24 pm

Silly_Pony wrote:This is likely why developers avoided STE enhancements.

I would say: publisher :) (developers prefer to experiment with new stuff)

Silly_Pony wrote: I lose some of the serial ports if I add either?

what happen with "apple talk" compatibility? TT and Falcon should have it... was it to complicate to write software? or atari never got license from Apple...? or it was low on to-do list?
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Dark Willow » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:44 pm

calimero wrote:
Silly_Pony wrote:This is likely why developers avoided STE enhancements.

I would say: publisher :) (developers prefer to experiment with new stuff)

Silly_Pony wrote: I lose some of the serial ports if I add either?

what happen with "apple talk" compatibility? TT and Falcon should have it... was it to complicate to write software? or atari never got license from Apple...? or it was low on to-do list?


On a related topic. Is there a particular reason that no one in the community developed drivers for the TT/Falcon Appletalk ports? Since a lot of Atarians migrated to macs, the possibility of connecting the Atari to an AppleTalk LAN must have appealed before ethernet broadband ethernet become the norm.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby lp » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:12 pm

I don't know about.... this versus that stuff, I've found that no one ever changes their mind in the end. :lol:

However, I will say that back in my high school years, my mom dragged me to some career center and there was a classic Macintosh there, the one with the tiny mono screen. It was my first introduction to the mouse. I played around with it, doodled some images in some paint program, basically I was blown away. Indeed it seemed like a well polished system. Before I left that day, my new goal was to get one of these macs, until I got home and found out what it cost. Needless to say the ST came out not long after at a price point I could afford. Now the irony, since my Hades060 has kicked the bucket, I rely on a mac to be my Atari. :(

Still holding out hope someone releases a 68K based clone so I can get back some sense of reality. :wink:

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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby wongck » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:50 pm

My story with Mac classic....
I was at the college computer center microcomputer room. There was this Mac classic, tiny mono screen, mouse and all.
I was able to do my work, write up and draw a diagram and print it out.... all at the 1st go on it... wow... I was blown away by it.

Then a senior of mine who owns an ST show the ST to me. I was like "what??!!... it can do the same thing at an affordable price!!!".
The rest is history... :mrgreen:
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby DarkLord » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:43 am

Have to say my story ran similar to everyone else's...

At our hospital back in the 80's, the Pharmacy Dept. had
a color Mac of some kind. Dept. head was kind enough to
let me come in and play with it a couple of times. Smooth,
nice, 1 button mouse was just odd...and then she told me
what it cost the hospital to buy.

Never considered the Mac again. :)
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:42 am

I remember college...

Was very strange. They had an A1200 for video titling, not used for anything else... 1040ST for Cubase, not used for anything else...

For "real computers" they used Macintosh Classics. I don't understand, they obviously knew about the A1200, a cheap 020 machine, and the ST, which could out do those macs on screen size, speed... And both utterly destroyed the Macs on price. If it were LCs or some model with colour, that would be reasonable. But dog slow floppy-only compact macs? A completely insane choice for the early 90s.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:44 am

I have ST since 1986. and I love Mac (via Aladdin) because of kids programs (MugShot, Alice in Wonderland... and I love LoadRunner :D)

but I also love STad, CAD 3D, CyberPaint, 3D construction kit on ST ;)
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby MrMaddog » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:40 am

Silly_Pony wrote:I remember college...

Was very strange. They had an A1200 for video titling, not used for anything else... 1040ST for Cubase, not used for anything else...

For "real computers" they used Macintosh Classics. I don't understand, they obviously knew about the A1200, a cheap 020 machine, and the ST, which could out do those macs on screen size, speed... And both utterly destroyed the Macs on price. If it were LCs or some model with colour, that would be reasonable. But dog slow floppy-only compact macs? A completely insane choice for the early 90s.


I'll agree with you on this one... When I went to college they had DOS based 386 PC's and Performa Macs, while at home I used a STe. Now I used the Macs at first because I used the Mac Pluses in high school plus I like the mouse interface better. You'd think the Performas would be better and faster than some 8Mhx ST but those Macs ran like dogs! They were slow, the mouse & keyboard felt cheap and they always bomb...not crash but literally bomb! Plus I couldn't transfer the files over to a PC formated disk my STe uses because none of the Macs had Apple File Exchange installed (this was before System 7.5). So I said the heck with it and used the PC's with the DOS version of WordPerfect which, surprise, use a mouse based interface. And it was dead easy to transfer text files to my STe running Protext which had a near identical interface to WP. So that's how I became a PC user...

Least anyone thinks I'm bashing Macs, that was my impression about 20 years ago. Nowadays Macs have come a hell of a long way... Sure Mac OS X has it's own quirks but also cool features to make up for it. As long as you don't "think PC" you should be ok. They could fix mouse srolling in Lion though...

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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:22 pm

Mouse keyboard feel cheap compared to STE? Surely you jest...

The funny thing is I know *exactly* which model of Performa you were suffering. I'd rather carry the ST to school with me every day than put up with those things. Thank god the other macs of the time where nowhere near that unstable or slow.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Dark Willow » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:18 am

Large institutions always buy based on who it is they are doing business with, not the technical advantages. At my high school we had a modest array of mostly incompatible gear form differing eras (often cannibalised and non-functioning) that would have benefited from being swapped out with a smaller but more reliable batch of Atari TTs or Amiga 4000s, which would have provided better commonality and been better suited to most tasks the school had a vague idea of using computers for. But, they had an agreement with a local family owned IT company who had been supplying them since Noah got off the ark, and they and the long term senior staff all had built up long relationships which they weren't going to risk for an unknown supplier, even if the new supplier could provide better kit. Better the devil you know... Oh, I know the guy from Company X, they can be trusted etc. etc.

It's the old "No one got fired for buying IBM" story. It might be crap and over-priced but at least you know the guy, and he'll buy you a drink down at the golf course.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Dark Willow » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:22 am

MrMaddog wrote:
Silly_Pony wrote:I remember college...

Was very strange. They had an A1200 for video titling, not used for anything else... 1040ST for Cubase, not used for anything else...

For "real computers" they used Macintosh Classics. I don't understand, they obviously knew about the A1200, a cheap 020 machine, and the ST, which could out do those macs on screen size, speed... And both utterly destroyed the Macs on price. If it were LCs or some model with colour, that would be reasonable. But dog slow floppy-only compact macs? A completely insane choice for the early 90s.


I'll agree with you on this one... When I went to college they had DOS based 386 PC's and Performa Macs, while at home I used a STe. Now I used the Macs at first because I used the Mac Pluses in high school plus I like the mouse interface better. You'd think the Performas would be better and faster than some 8Mhx ST but those Macs ran like dogs! They were slow, the mouse & keyboard felt cheap and they always bomb...not crash but literally bomb! Plus I couldn't transfer the files over to a PC formated disk my STe uses because none of the Macs had Apple File Exchange installed (this was before System 7.5). So I said the heck with it and used the PC's with the DOS version of WordPerfect which, surprise, use a mouse based interface. And it was dead easy to transfer text files to my STe running Protext which had a near identical interface to WP. So that's how I became a PC user...

Least anyone thinks I'm bashing Macs, that was my impression about 20 years ago. Nowadays Macs have come a hell of a long way... Sure Mac OS X has it's own quirks but also cool features to make up for it. As long as you don't "think PC" you should be ok. They could fix mouse srolling in Lion though...


IIRC some of the Performas were just rebranded LCs with the crappy bus and flakey video. Not a nice system at all.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Dark Willow » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:22 am

double post
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby zonky900 » Mon May 27, 2013 2:58 am

I grew up using 68k macs at home and in school, but always knew the ST as a machine that musicians used! To this day I prefer to use a STe over a $1000+ MIDI sequencer. It always had better music support.

That said I still use a 68k Powerbook as a laptop when I just want to do "computer" things or be productive and not be on the internet. But nobody I knew growing up ever had a ST. It was just Mac or DOS.

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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby nativ » Mon May 27, 2013 8:26 pm

zonky900 wrote:I grew up using 68k macs at home and in school, but always knew the ST as a machine that musicians used! To this day I prefer to use a STe over a $1000+ MIDI sequencer. It always had better music support.

That said I still use a 68k Powerbook as a laptop when I just want to do "computer" things or be productive and not be on the internet. But nobody I knew growing up ever had a ST. It was just Mac or DOS.


:) I have Powerbook 180c and a 180 ( g3 Bronze too )

How productive can you be on a Powerbook? Are you running Magic Mac? :D

the 2000 on Macs seem to have picked up lots of issues with Power supplies graphics cards. and falling support for hardware and software add ons.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Mon May 27, 2013 11:17 pm

nativ wrote:
zonky900 wrote:How productive can you be on a Powerbook? Are you running Magic Mac? :D

I think he was talking about this: viewtopic.php?f=92&t=24573#p231691

:) :) :cheers:
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby tresas » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:11 pm

Hi to all,
i have a question
Did the first OS of the Mac support hard drive?
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby joska » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:10 pm

tresas wrote:Did the first OS of the Mac support hard drive?


No. The first Mac did not have enough RAM to load the HFS filesystem driver.
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby tresas » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:08 pm

Thanks!
So, can somebody claim that the Atari ST's OS (from its first version of TOS) supported the Hard drive better than the MAC?
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby joska » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:12 pm

tresas wrote:Thanks!
So, can somebody claim that the Atari ST's OS (from its first version of TOS) supported the Hard drive better than the MAC?


Well, TOS did support harddrives from the beginning, so even if it didn't do that very well I guess that makes it better than the Mac ;)
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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Frank B » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:16 pm

I think they had to do some hack on the original mac. The interface wasn't fast enough for hard disks. I remember reading about this ages ago.

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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Frank B » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:19 pm

http://lowendmac.com/tech/scsi.shtml

"This process, called interleaving, forced the drive to read every second, third, four, or even fifth sector; thus the platter had to rotate two or more times to read all the data in a track. This kept the drives from sending data faster than the Plus could handle it. Interleaves of 3:1 (three revolutions to read a track) and sometimes higher were common."

http://lowendmac.com/1986/mac-plus/ is the first mac with scsi.

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Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby tresas » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:45 pm

Wow! Thank you for the info. :D
And something else...
The Mac 128, 512 didn't have midi?
I can't located in the specs!!! :shrug:
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