ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Troubles with your machine? Just want to speak about the latest improvements? This is the place!

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, Greenious, spiny, Moderator Team

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:32 am

This one is interesting question: does Mac offer any adaventages over ST?

It was:

1. Two-three times more expensive
2. It has less memory for that price
3. It has smaller screen with smaller resolution
4. No colors
5. No fast DMA ASCI port
6. Slower CPU

Thats it. ...and it was three years in development vs STs six months ;)

Basicly there is no rational reason to choise Mac over ST. ST could runmac software faster, with bigger resolution than original expensive Mac.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

Dio
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Dio » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:54 am

Better debugged (more efficient?) OS
OS upgrades
No games to distort brand
Dozens of halo effects: far stronger business brand, excellent US distribution network, fanatical userbase.
Extraordinarily hard to credit how mental people went over Hypercard

To the Atari pluses you can add 'Disks you can actually eject'.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12774
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby wongck » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:02 am

Mac advantage.... They have Steve and we have Jack.
Hope both are doing well when they meet each other in er........ the after world.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63 CTPCI ATI RTL8139 USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

User avatar
MrMaddog
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:03 am
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby MrMaddog » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:12 am

This...

http://youtu.be/a4C46UZlW_E

...and this....

http://youtu.be/s_Y29Jyk7Ao

Add Mac emulation for $300 and you run apps 20% faster than real Mac SE's :mrgreen:


(Shame the Tramiels weren't aggressive marketeers like Apple was...)

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:40 am

^

bullseye!!

And yet the Mac survived to this day. Probably because they cost 2x as much as the ST... :(


samo could go for PCs....
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

KLund1
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:09 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby KLund1 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:08 am

MrMaddog wrote:This...

http://youtu.be/a4C46UZlW_E

...and this....

http://youtu.be/s_Y29Jyk7Ao

Add Mac emulation for $300 and you run apps 20% faster than real Mac SE's :mrgreen:


(Shame the Tramiels weren't aggressive marketeers like Apple was...)


Just a thought...
Advertising for computers was still fairly new concept at that time. But if those ads were done by a much better ad company, and had wider distribution, like prime time US, things might be a bit different now......
UPDATED: Falcon 030(FX-1)(CF int & removable SD), MSTE 4+PS3000 4160STE 2.06+HDFD STacy4-internal-USD 1040STFM+I.B.Driver-5.25"FDD 1040STF 1040ST 520ST-AdSpeed 400-48k 800+810x2+820+822+825+830+835+850, 800XL+IndusGT 600XL 130XE+XF551x2 Portfolio 1200XL APE(Warp+32in1 OS SuperVideo 2.1 256k RAMBO)+1050x2 USD'd+SIO2PC, PC1+PCH204+PCM124+PCF554x2

User avatar
nativ
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4106
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:26 am
Location: South West, UK

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby nativ » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:13 am

problem is also .. TV ads' aren't getting to the market, the market is at that point a Mac Market.. and although featuring a comparison against the Apple it's outside of the buyers realm generally I would say! What time of day would this ad generate a response? 8PM? It would have to be a 'Campaign' more so.. which is what Apple did. As mentioned Apple was also a 'wealthy' hobbyist computer to start with, despite the fact they are grown from MOS technologies ( Tramiel ) and Atari Development ( Bushnell ) and borrowed... ideas from Xerox ;)


Timeworks it a great package, not as long winded as the Mac DTP and yet does so much more than Word! Perhaps this is 20 years too early in the market?
Atari STFM 512 / STe 4MB / Mega ST+DSP / Falcon 4MB 16Mhz 68882 - DVD/CDRW/ZIP/DAT - FDI / Jaguar / Lynx 1&2 / 7800 / 2600 / XE 130+SD Card // Sega Dreamcast / Mega2+CD2 // Apple G4

http://soundcloud.com/nativ ~ http://soundcloud.com/nativ-1 ~ http://soundcloud.com/knot_music
http://soundcloud.com/push-sounds ~ http://soundcloud.com/push-records

User avatar
1st1
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 11:48 am

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby 1st1 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:16 am

Advantage for ATARi ST:

- ST could emulate Mac (Aladdin, Spectre 128k), Mac could not emulate ST back in mid 1980's!


Yeah!!!
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:27 pm

Let's do a reality check:

Macintosh:

- Operating system that isn't TOS
- Separate, high quality keyboard
-clear upgrade path

Atari ST:

- Awful TOS. Severe bugs for years (hello there hard disk support), as well as clunky unalterable behaviors like pull down menus that pull themselves down. Not to mention having to install a hack like GDOS for real font support, or having to replace rom chips to upgrade.

- Built in keyboard on most models. Built in very low quality keyboard on most models.

-No clear upgrade path.

Do you move to the Mega, where there's a good keyboard and a blitter? Or STE where there's still the terrible keyboard, but blitter and DMA sound? Or do you move to the TT030, where there's VGA monitor support, one expansion slot, but no blitter? Anything above STFM seems to be assigned features completely at random. There's no sense that one is better than the other.

- No real expansion support. No slot on the ST/STE, Mega bus exclusive to Mega STs, and a single VME slot on the TT and the Mega STE. Or you could just buy a Mac II and enjoy a whole bunch of NuBus.

- Weirdo external bus. ACSI vs SCSI... Hmm betamax much?

- Having to buy two monitors and a switch box. C'mon son.

It's clear that Atari ST had better price/performance by a hell of a lot.

It's also clear that the premium Apple charged ensured you got a finished product.
1040STe, 1040STf

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:38 pm

You are not right in half of things... I will later replay.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:00 pm

calimero wrote:You are not right in half of things... I will later replay.


Why not now?
1040STe, 1040STf

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12774
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby wongck » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:24 pm

Silly_Pony wrote:Macintosh:
- Operating system that isn't TOS


Ha ha ha.... if it was, Atari may still be around. Think of how much royalty it would have gotten, may be until version 9.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63 CTPCI ATI RTL8139 USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:36 am

I'm so glad TOS stayed singletasking (in rom). It's terribleness is completely hidden as soon as you start a program.

The idea of that awful desktop being there all the time scares me a bit, to be honest.
1040STe, 1040STf

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:40 am

Why not now?

because we have barbecue :D

first, I compare original Mac Classic from 1984. and ST from 1985.

so everything stay:
1. Two-three times more expensive
2. It has less memory for that price
3. It has smaller screen with smaller resolution
4. No colors
5. No fast DMA ASCI port
6. Slower CPU...

and ST could emulate Mac faster than original Mac :D

original Mac technically looks even worst than ST vs Amiga :D

--------

but if you want to broader picture than:

- Operating system that isn't TOS

- Atari get MultiTos (unix like OS) 8 years before Mac (Mac OS X)
- Separate, high quality keyboard

- original Mac keyboard lack of cursors keys and numpad
-clear upgrade path

yes, this was BIGGEST problem with Tramiels "Power without price" - Atari did not produce 6000 or 7000$ computers like Apple :(

and they DID NOT produce next ST (I am sure they could) to keep pace with Apple.

BUT you could still get 40MHz 68030 ST system for fraction of Mac price (with 3rd party accelerators) :)

but bottom line: they lost focus after ST, maybe Mega ST and SLM... (1988.)

The idea of that awful desktop being there all the time scares me a bit, to be honest.

yes, TOS was shity... (e.g. http://www.fultonsoft.com/2009/07/18/re ... st-part-1/)

but because of this you have 3 different OS for ST and dozen desktop replacements...

beside TOS: Kaos, Geneva, MagiC, MiNT/MultiTOS

desktop: KaosDesk, NeoDesk, TeraDesk, Jinnee, Mag!xDesk :) ...that's all I can remember in second.

TT... but no blitter?

32MHz 68030 is faster than blitter.

- Weirdo external bus. ACSI vs SCSI... Hmm betamax much?

SCSI was not finalized until 1986. so Atari take part of SCSI specification and come up with ACSI...

- Having to buy two monitors and a switch box. C'mon son.

? you refer to mono and color monitor? ultra sharp SM124 is one of biggest strength of ST!
and if you want color and mono on ONE monitor than you would get real mess!


btw my point is that ST was far more better designed than Mac in 3 times less time.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12774
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby wongck » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:26 am

calimero wrote:
Why not now?

because we have barbecue :D

first, I compare original Mac Classic from 1984. and ST from 1985.


Very good point, comparing Mac Classic.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63 CTPCI ATI RTL8139 USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

User avatar
Cyprian
10 GOTO 10
10 GOTO 10
Posts: 1719
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:23 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Cyprian » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:15 pm

Silly_Pony wrote:Atari ST:

- Awful TOS. Severe bugs for years (hello there hard disk support), as well as clunky unalterable behaviors like pull down menus that pull themselves down.

well, In my opinion it was very convenient feature and I missed it.
I really hate that additional ugly click for open any menu in Windows7 (and Xaaes too :( ). I lost thousand clicks for nothing daily :)


Silly_Pony wrote:Not to mention having to install a hack like GDOS for real font support, or having to replace rom chips to upgrade.


I heard that GDOS wasn't included into TOS due to law issue.
Lynx II / Jaugar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / Lynx Multi Card / LDW Super 2000 / XCA12 / SkunkBoard / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
Hatari / Steem SSE / Aranym / Saint
http://260ste.appspot.com/

User avatar
nativ
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4106
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:26 am
Location: South West, UK

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby nativ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:31 pm

- Awful TOS. Severe bugs for years (hello there hard disk support)
:D Why do I run AHDI v1.1 Jun1986 on my SH205?


:D Menu bars.. after waiting for 1 minute for Windows XP to load I have to wait 5 more for Start bar to repond! :D


Not to mention having to install a hack like GDOS for real font support, or having to replace rom chips to upgrade.
[/quote]

I heard that GDOS wasn't included into TOS due to law issue.[/quote]

:D Yep that's right , because of 'over similarities' to Mac Os
Atari STFM 512 / STe 4MB / Mega ST+DSP / Falcon 4MB 16Mhz 68882 - DVD/CDRW/ZIP/DAT - FDI / Jaguar / Lynx 1&2 / 7800 / 2600 / XE 130+SD Card // Sega Dreamcast / Mega2+CD2 // Apple G4

http://soundcloud.com/nativ ~ http://soundcloud.com/nativ-1 ~ http://soundcloud.com/knot_music
http://soundcloud.com/push-sounds ~ http://soundcloud.com/push-records

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:37 pm

calimero wrote:
- Operating system that isn't TOS

- Atari get MultiTos (unix like OS) 8 years before Mac (Mac OS X)


So? Multitos was optional, shipped on floppy and was buggy. Didn't it come out in 93?

So Atari had crap OS for 8 years. Macintosh had polished OS from day one.

calimero wrote:
- Separate, high quality keyboard

- original Mac keyboard lack of cursors keys and numpad


Not the nature of the complaint. ST keyboard has horrible feel, cheap and nasty. Apple's keyboards of the time are very nice to type on and very overengineered.

calimero wrote:BUT you could still get 40MHz 68030 ST system for fraction of Mac price (with 3rd party accelerators) :)


Doesn't matter. Third party isn't Atari, it doesn't represent anything official about the platform. A bunch of addons vs a computer that is ready out of the box, it can't compete.

calimero wrote:but because of this you have 3 different OS for ST and dozen desktop replacements...

beside TOS: Kaos, Geneva, MagiC, MiNT/MultiTOS

desktop: KaosDesk, NeoDesk, TeraDesk, Jinnee, Mag!xDesk :) ...that's all I can remember in second.


Again, this can't compete. If the end user buys a "superior" computer, takes it home, then finds he has to spend a lot of time and money learning how to make it match the competition... This is a failure. Remember that these also took many years to show up.

calimero wrote:32MHz 68030 is faster than blitter.


What of software written to use the blitter? What If I want as much of the 030 as possible, and want to leave graphics to the slow blitter?

calimero wrote:SCSI was not finalized until 1986. so Atari take part of SCSI specification and come up with ACSI...


Doesn't change that this is a betamax situation. ASCI addons still cost more and are rarer, and that is still a disadvantage to the end user. Apple had the sense to wait.

calimero wrote:? you refer to mono and color monitor? ultra sharp SM124 is one of biggest strength of ST!
and if you want color and mono on ONE monitor than you would get real mess!


To replace the two monitors with one you need 15-31Khz Horizontal sync capability. This is no problem at all. Anyway, end user does not know or care about technical details. All he sees is his friends mac doesn't need a two head cludge.


calimero wrote:btw my point is that ST was far more better designed than Mac in 3 times less time.


Not... really. Chips, yes. Overall machine no.

It's not really a fair comparison of what was achieved, either. Apple spent many years before the Mac launched on User Interface testing. "OK" vs "Do it.", etc. Remember the engineers wanted $1000 launch price in 1984.

Atari ST is faster, more capable chips. That doesn't make it a better thing to sit on your desk. Third party keyboard mod and Spectre GCR and it comes out slightly ahead of the Mac plus, but again, third party addons.

Please understand that I'm not bagging on the ST here. It's an incredibly cheap, powerful computer for the time. With computers, you choose from power, cost, and polish. You can only ever have two.
1040STe, 1040STf

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:35 pm

So? Multitos was optional, shipped on floppy and was buggy. Didn't it come out in 93?

but you just complain that TOS was in ROM without any chance to uprage!

and now you are complaining that MultiTos is on floppy (harddisc)... ? :D

anyway - MacOS was ok in 1984, but in 1995. everybody has preemptive multitasking and memory protection (except amiga :P) and Apple. Atari did have both in 1993.

btw regarding OS on floppy: DID YOU FORGET how often you need to swap floppy on Mac Classic ??? ;)

[qoute]Doesn't change that this is a betamax situation. ASCI addons still cost more and are rarer, and that is still a disadvantage to the end user. Apple had the sense to wait.[/quote]
so Mac Classic is better because it does not have ASCI (DMA driven, 1MB/s port...)? :D ok.

All he sees is his friends mac doesn't need a two head cludge.

yes, because Mac does not have colors :D

this is ridiculous!

With computers, you choose from power, cost, and polish. You can only ever have two.

yes, you choose ST because it is Mac (on steroids) + ST ;) in third of price
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:49 pm

calimero wrote:and now you are complaining that MultiTos is on floppy (harddisc)... ? :D


Not quite. I am complaining that until MultiTOS (and with the exception of early floppy boot STs), the only way to upgrade TOS was to have chips replaced.

I'm also pointing out that MultiTOS as it was released by atari was never the default, or even viable.

The third point is that TOS is totally threadbare junk. You're only able to change the most simple settings and key features only came much later. Wasn't Rainbow TOS the 90s? Even that only got you some bugfixes and the AUTO folder. That's pathetic. Compare System .85 (Macintosh 1985) to System 7.1 (1993). Massive upgrades!

calimero wrote:anyway - MacOS was ok in 1984, but in 1995. everybody has preemptive multitasking and memory protection (except amiga :P) and Apple. Atari did have both in 1993.


Atari had a broken proof of concept that was MultiTOS. Not a usable product. ROM TOS was still the same old junk like back in 85.

calimero wrote:btw regarding OS on floppy: DID YOU FORGET how often you need to swap floppy on Mac Classic ??? ;)


You needed to do the same on ST. Hell, ST waits an ice age for language disk, so there's no boot time advantage.

calimero wrote:so Mac Classic is better because it does not have ASCI (DMA driven, 1MB/s port...)? :D ok.


Yes, SCSI-1 is 5MB/s, and cheaper. ASCI devices often are internally SCSI with adapter. This adds cost.

ASCI only made sense until SCSI standardized. So 1 year max.


calimero wrote:yes, because Mac does not have colors :D


Colour Macs had colour. They come later (1987) but even then, Monochrome OR Colour modes run on Colour monitor.



______________________________________________________________

I have to point this out seperately:

You cannot defend a product's deficiencies by saying to buy addons. It should be obvious that 1) these addons aren't standardized in the same manner as the base system, and require a lot more knowledge. 2) Are extra cost 3) took many years to come to market. 4) are much more work than just buying a machine that doesn't need this crap.

Once you've waited for TT-Touch keyboard upgrade, Multi-Sync monitor, overpriced ASCI hard disk, 1.4 ROM, MagiC, THING desktop...

Is that really a better deal than just buying a Macintosh? Financially, maybe. You'll certainly have more games.

But is it something that you could recommend to the Macintosh's target market? Here save a few hundred after struggling for weeks?
Last edited by Silly_Pony on Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1040STe, 1040STf

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:02 pm

That's pathetic. Compare System .85 (Macintosh 1985) to System 7.1 (1993). Massive upgrades!

massive (_cosmetics_) upgrade! ;)

I find very impressive that Apple with all millions and employes was unable to make successor of Mac OS with preemptive multitasking and memory protection.

OS 7 was junk (I had PowerBook 5300 in 1998.) - you start application and it grab as much RAM as it think it will be needed.

btw we can continue until tomorrow with this... BUT ST vs Mac Classic - situation is clear ;)
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:14 pm

calimero wrote:
That's pathetic. Compare System .85 (Macintosh 1985) to System 7.1 (1993). Massive upgrades!

massive (_cosmetics_) upgrade! ;)


No, not cosmetics. System 2 completely rewrote Quickdraw (Macintosh VDI-like layer) for full colour support. Later versions included New control panel systems, support for more hardware, co-op multitasking, networking, etc etc. The usability of System 7.1 over 0.85 is massive.

Saying it's merely cosmetic improvement is pure ignorance.

calimero wrote:I find very impressive that Apple with all millions and employes was unable to make successor of Mac OS with preemptive multitasking and memory protection.


First, I should point out this is irrelevant to Macintosh vs ST.

They already did. A/UX was a full unix that ran Macintosh software flawlessly, using the macintosh desktop. Licencing killed it.

Atari on the other hand slapped together bits of AES and a far from finished kernel from a hobbyist and called it MultiTOS.

The difference was that for part of the Macintosh range A/UX was factory installed. That never happened for MultiTOS.

calimero wrote:OS 7 was junk (I had PowerBook 5300 in 1998.) - you start application and it grab as much RAM as it think it will be needed.


The fact you are more interested in the memory management system than actually using the computer to achieve a task tells me a lot.

calimero wrote:btw we can continue until tomorrow with this... BUT ST vs Mac Classic - situation is clear ;)


Now try ST range versus the II (three years earlier than Mac Classic).

Or even TT030 vs IIfx.
Last edited by Silly_Pony on Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1040STe, 1040STf

User avatar
nativ
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 4106
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:26 am
Location: South West, UK

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby nativ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:24 pm

I think we had access to some 68040 Quadras at college, I wasn't overly impressed, OS on HD... Hi colour screen √ But the screen speed was terrible.. and the wait time from asking it to do anything was.... tiring... even photochromes display time was comparably fast
Atari STFM 512 / STe 4MB / Mega ST+DSP / Falcon 4MB 16Mhz 68882 - DVD/CDRW/ZIP/DAT - FDI / Jaguar / Lynx 1&2 / 7800 / 2600 / XE 130+SD Card // Sega Dreamcast / Mega2+CD2 // Apple G4

http://soundcloud.com/nativ ~ http://soundcloud.com/nativ-1 ~ http://soundcloud.com/knot_music
http://soundcloud.com/push-sounds ~ http://soundcloud.com/push-records

User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: STara Pazova, Serbia
Contact:

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby calimero » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:42 pm

...pre-emptive multitasking

??? on Mac OS 7?

New control panel systems, support for more hardware, pre-emptive multitasking, networking... Saying it's merely cosmetic improvement is pure ignorance.

same goes to ST. It also evolved over time: you got networking, preemptive multitasking (Mac does not), memory protection (Mac does not)...

The fact you are more interested in the memory management system than actually using the computer to achieve a task tells me a lot.

ok, let me rephrase it: PowerBook was PURE DISAPPOINTMENT for me. I expect FAR more advanced machine over my dead Falcon back in 1998.
I sell it (it was unbelievable expensive anyway).
I bought PC crapware.
Luckily, there was Windows 2000 around corner - it was really OK OS. But Mac OS X was real deal! (from 10.4, maybe 10.3)

Now try ST range versus the II (three years earlier than Mac Classic).

I would not. As I said, Tramiel lost focus and did not produced expensive computers (unfortunately). Beside after Shiraz they change VP of development to often ;)

last time: Atari (J. Tramiel / S. Shivji...) in 1985. made far superior product than Apples Mac.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

Silly_Pony
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: ST vs Mac : advantages/disadvantages

Postby Silly_Pony » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:49 pm

calimero wrote:
...pre-emptive multitasking

??? on Mac OS 7?


Typo. See correction.

same goes to ST. It also evolved over time: you got networking, preemptive multitasking (Mac does not), memory protection (Mac does not)...


NO.

NO. NO. NO. Third party developments are not Atari ST default. What you, yourself, make several years later on your own desk at home is NOT comparable to what actually came from the factory. It. is. Not. Relevant.

Ataris Shipped with TOS in rom. Atari Falcon also had MultTOS on floppy. That's all Atari did. Atari had nothing compared to Mac OS.

made far superior product than Apples Mac.


Chips yes. Total product, not really. You had a hardware advantage for a little while, then apple left you in the dirt.
1040STe, 1040STf


Social Media

     

Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests