RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

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evil
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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby evil » Mon May 28, 2018 5:38 pm

StEeLz wrote:- The VGA-> HDMI DOES 50 & 60 Hz with no problem
- The VGA-> HDMI DOES output proper 50/60 motion and does not blend frames
- The VGA-> HDMI DOES pass the flicker test (Flickers, both green and purple)

My theory (please keep me honest) is that the Monitor RGB output is progressive as most VGA resolutions out there. I can't even see a reason why it would be interlaced in the first place as the Atari Monitors are not TVs, and it was simpler to implement a progressive frame versus interlaced.


This is very encouraging!
The converters I've bought before have been Scart-RGB and the converters have been trying to deal with the supposedly interlaced signal in crappy ways to get a progressive HDMI stream.

As for interlace; the Atari screens will show an interlaced signal like any other crt screen from the time being. Just hook up a Falcon or Amiga and have a look, it will be fine. Atari even shipped DB19->DIN13 adapters for the Falcon so you could use the Atari colour (and mono) screens with it.

mikro wrote:Glad I had ordered the converter earlier and now it's on its way to me. :) I second StEeLz, there's no reason why it shouldn't work -- there's no TV crap anywhere, just pure R/G/B signals converted to the HDMI standard. But after hearing Evil's experience I wasn't so confident anymore, glad to hear my doubts cleared. :)


I think you're missing the point; ST RGB out is 15.5 kHz horizontal frequency, "normal" VGA is 31 kHz or above. For the same reason that the most modern tft screens won't display 15.5 kHz, many converters won't do it either.

Sometimes the hardware supports the low frequency, but the software puts up a box above the perfectly good Atari image displaying something like "Unsupported signal". It's annoying when shitty software ruin hardware that seems decent. And sometimes the hardware will really not do 15.5 kHz even if it's trying and show a scrambled screen.

But this cheap little thing seems encouraging, I'll order one.

Things to look for

a) Input lag, if you want to play games
b) Interlaced support
c) Switch between interlace/progressive
d) Border cropping (will we see the entire screen?)
e) Eventual post filters (scaling etc)

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby StEeLz » Tue May 29, 2018 2:07 am

evil wrote:I think you're missing the point; ST RGB out is 15.5 kHz horizontal frequency, "normal" VGA is 31 kHz or above. For the same reason that the most modern tft screens won't display 15.5 kHz, many converters won't do it either.

Sometimes the hardware supports the low frequency, but the software puts up a box above the perfectly good Atari image displaying something like "Unsupported signal". It's annoying when shitty software ruin hardware that seems decent. And sometimes the hardware will really not do 15.5 kHz even if it's trying and show a scrambled screen.


Exactly where my concern is as well. My TVs OSD don't show the HDMI input H. Frequency so it may as well be 15Khz and my TVs happen to handle it... For example, when I used an HDMI->DVI adapter and tried on a computer monitor, it wouldn't accept the signal. But All the TVs in the house are working fine...
I'll be curious to know what your experiences are, hopefully I'm not an isolated success story!

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby StEeLz » Tue May 29, 2018 5:18 am

For those who would be interested, here's a quick follow-up video of the VGA Converter, including :
- 50/60Hz test
- 50Hz true motion test
- Evil's flicker test :cheers:

https://youtu.be/KIUg9KgCaeo

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby Sowden » Tue May 29, 2018 5:01 pm

Hey ho guys. So I can talk a little about the SCART to HDMI converter that you bought. That box has to be open source, because I have bought two of those things and all of the inners were completely different. Below is a post I made demonstrating a mod I needed to make to make RGB work with the converter box. RGB didn't work for me right out of the box.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/249091 ... ?p=3531685

Also the black box I own doesn't have a 50Hz issue. It works perfectly in both 50 and 60. So I'm finding that the problem with that upscaler is that your not sure what your gonna get. The upscaler goes for many prices ranging from $25-$50 and the main board vary from box to box. I would have to say that the ultimate solution for the ST is the OSSC, but I understand not everyone can get their hands on that. Your VGA box is very interesting though. I own one of Exxos UBE Video Adapter, so I think I'm gonna give this guy a try.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby tin » Tue May 29, 2018 7:36 pm

@Snowden: did you try evils flicker test? Your box looks a lot like one I have here - and my own flicker test showed that it does not do 50 Hz (although it says in its overlay that it does). It‘s sometimes hard to distinguish 50 from 25 Hz w/o flicker test.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby StEeLz » Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 pm

Sowden wrote:Hey ho guys. So I can talk a little about the SCART to HDMI converter that you bought. That box has to be open source, because I have bought two of those things and all of the inners were completely different. Below is a post I made demonstrating a mod I needed to make to make RGB work with the converter box. RGB didn't work for me right out of the box.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/249091 ... ?p=3531685


- My cheap SCART Converter (small plastic box) does ONLY support composite signal, the RGB pins of the SCART plug are not even routed on the PCB
- My more expensive SCART Upscaler is looking like the one you modded and supported RGB signals right from the bat (no mod needed) but yet was very disappointed about the input lag and artifacts. I wish it could handle 50Hz properly.

As it seems there are so many variations, do you guys see value in compiling a list of adapters (brand and model) with their working/not working features?

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby wietze » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:04 pm

Hello guys.

Ive received the VGA to HDMI converter that Steelz described both here and demonstrates on his youtube video. The tests I have done have resulted int he following:
- Given 2 STF's and 1 STE
- Connected to the VGA <> HDMI converter through direct 13 pin din to VGA (switch for LOW/MED & High rest)
- Connected to display device using HDMI cable
- Using various displays: 2 LCD monitors and 1 LCD tv

The `only' signal that is being picked up by 1 LCD monitor (and thus not even ALL displays) is when the ST outputs High resolution.

This leads me to believe that the VGA <> HDMI converter is not upscaling or converting the incoming signal to a consistent 50 or 60 hz output signal; or possibly there is something wrong with my 13 pin din to VGA cable?

I have not been able to get any ST Low signal being displayed on my monitors.

<Edit> I will test again with another cable as aoon as I got another one.
Last edited by wietze on Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby mikro » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:06 pm

I was about to post my test results but guess what - my PSU by Exxos has broke in the very same moment, can you believe that? I have another STs available but I had all configured in the STE in question, damn it.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby tin » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:44 pm

A quick test with the described esynic VGA=>HDMI adapter went fairly well. Like StEeLz‘ tests suggested, the conversion transports full, true 50Hz, not just two blended 25Hz fields (like all(?) other HDMI converters do). Still have to test 60Hz and the overscan coverage.

Tested this with a Mega ST and a HDMI capture card. Didn‘t test any other HDMI devices yet.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby Estrayk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:04 pm

Hello, this is an example from my real STe with Expresstech @ SCART>HDMI (amazon) and video captured with a Avermedia PCIe HDMI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVT42ojuyFE

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby tin » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:18 pm

Estrayk wrote:Hello, this is an example from my real STe with Expresstech @ SCART>HDMI (amazon) and video captured with a Avermedia PCIe HDMI.


The capture unfortunately seems to have a 25Hz cap somewhere in your conversion chain - Youtube states it is 720p50 but it's source was 25 hz. That way it's hard to judge if this Scart/HDMI converter is capable of 50 Hz.

Could you run evils 50Hz test and share the result? That would be nice. We yet have to see a 50hz capable cheap Scart/HDMI converter.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby Estrayk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:54 pm

tin wrote:The capture unfortunately seems to have a 25Hz cap somewhere in your conversion chain - Youtube states it is 720p50 but it's source was 25 hz. That way it's hard to judge if this Scart/HDMI converter is capable of 50 Hz.

Could you run evils 50Hz test and share the result? That would be nice. We yet have to see a 50hz capable cheap Scart/HDMI converter.


sure! :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Om8MbTZK_k



I add also as bonus the intro effect from "We were" demo that are a lot of scrollers at 50fps. Seems you´re right. this hardware is capped to 25fps.
:(

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby mikro » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:55 pm

My experience is even worse than wietze's: I connected my MegaST using Centuriontech's ST2VGA + VGA cable + eSYNiC VGA2DHMI (the one from YouTube video) to a LCD TV and nothing. Not even ST-High! (actually now I read his post again, it seems he wasn't able to get this resolution on every LCD TV/monitor either!)

Tomorrow I'm going to get a LCD monitor with HDMI, among others, so fingers crossed. Maybe I'll get luckier.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby mikro » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:58 pm

StEeLz wrote:For those who would be interested, here's a quick follow-up video of the VGA Converter, including :
- 50/60Hz test
- 50Hz true motion test
- Evil's flicker test :cheers:

https://youtu.be/KIUg9KgCaeo

StEeLz, what was the LCD TV used for testing? Obviously, this trick works only on some TVs. :-(

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby StEeLz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:15 pm

mikro wrote:StEeLz, what was the LCD TV used for testing? Obviously, this trick works only on some TVs. :-(

TV used is the Sharp LC-22LS510UT

tin wrote:Could you run evils 50Hz test and share the result? That would be nice. We yet have to see a 50hz capable cheap Scart/HDMI converter.

I have actually ran the flicker test on the follow-up video here: https://youtu.be/KIUg9KgCaeo and it behaves as expected

However, I will have to agree with all the comments, if the cheap converter is doing wonders, there is no further processing nor line doubling or upscaling. This means it will depend on what your TV video processor is able to take on the HDMI input, but it's worth a shot before going with more expensive converters.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby Gaiyan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:36 pm

StEeLz wrote:
mikro wrote:StEeLz, what was the LCD TV used for testing? Obviously, this trick works only on some TVs. :-(

TV used is the Sharp LC-22LS510UT

tin wrote:Could you run evils 50Hz test and share the result? That would be nice. We yet have to see a 50hz capable cheap Scart/HDMI converter.

I have actually ran the flicker test on the follow-up video here: https://youtu.be/KIUg9KgCaeo and it behaves as expected

However, I will have to agree with all the comments, if the cheap converter is doing wonders, there is no further processing nor line doubling or upscaling. This means it will depend on what your TV video processor is able to take on the HDMI input, but it's worth a shot before going with more expensive converters.


So we're back to 15khz then? So a monitor with both VGA and DVI that can only display ST-High through VGA will also only display ST-High through DVI with this converter?
Image

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby StEeLz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:45 pm

Gaiyan wrote:So we're back to 15khz then? So a monitor with both VGA and DVI that can only display ST-High through VGA will also only display ST-High through DVI with this converter?


Surprisingly, not necessarily. Actually all my monitors are taking the High-Res Monochrome VGA but none are taking the Low or Med on VGA BUT for some reason, they are taking it through the HDMI when using the converter.
It seems some video processors can handle different resolutions and frequency depending on the input.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby Gaiyan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:14 pm

StEeLz wrote:
Gaiyan wrote:So we're back to 15khz then? So a monitor with both VGA and DVI that can only display ST-High through VGA will also only display ST-High through DVI with this converter?


Surprisingly, not necessarily. Actually all my monitors are taking the High-Res Monochrome VGA but none are taking the Low or Med on VGA BUT for some reason, they are taking it through the HDMI when using the converter.
It seems some video processors can handle different resolutions and frequency depending on the input.


That's interesting. Too bad Amazon.uk sells the same converter for 45£ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Converter-Adap ... 00KXTXPIC/

But thanks for both videos. I appreciate it when people actually know their stuff :)
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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby mikro » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:46 pm

StEeLz wrote:TV used is the Sharp LC-22LS510UT

OK, time to RTFM:
sharp.png
Mystery solved.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby StEeLz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:02 pm

Exact, it boils down to what your TV is able to handle on the HDMI, here is the full spec for THIS particular TV:
Image

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby wietze » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:05 pm

Hahaha. So basically the VGA to HDMI converter doesnt solve anything really. Apart from that your display device may have different tolerances for HDMI than VGA input; so this works IF your display device can handle 15khz HDMI.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby mikro » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:54 am

Update: I've purchased another monitor, EIZO EV2450, which (accidentally) have in its specs: Digital Scanning Frequency (H / V) HDMI: 15 - 68 kHz, 49 - 61 Hz. That seemed quite encouraging but also a bit suspicious as Analog Scanning Frequency (H / V) is listed only as 31 - 81 kHz, 55 - 76 Hz (I assume VGA is meant by that).

And, unfortunately, it is as you have maybe guessed. It doesn't work either. For ST High there was a brief attempt to show something (could see the desktop for like 0.5 seconds and then nothing), ST Low absolutely nothing.

So the good news is that you can find recent monitors / TVs with HDMI@15 kHz support but same as in VGA@15 kHz case, you can't 100% rely on the specs.

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Re: RGB to HDMI does this work with a ST

Postby evil » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:52 pm

The device finally arrived at my place as well.

Some testings done:

Display 1: LG M1994D

ESYNIC ST-LOW: No image
ESYNIC ST-HIGH: No image
OSSC ST-LOW: Looks good
OSSC ST-HIGH: A bit stretched out

Display 2: Benq E2220HD:

ESYNIC ST-LOW: No image
ESYNIC ST-HIGH: No image
OSSC ST-LOW: Looks good
OSSC ST-HIGH: Double images, not good

I've used the same cables, same video switch, same inputs on the monitors to make sure there's no problem with those things. During the tests I've also mirrored the VGA to a projector that handles 15 kHz fine to make sure the signal from the ST is good.

I could probably try and pick up some other old screen from work to test more, but it seems obvious that the device doesn't do scandoubling and we're more or less back at square one; find a screen that supports 15 kHz.

OSSC is still the king :)


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