Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby simbo » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:03 pm

look a jookies ide devil on his site
it has the best chance and doesnt require any change

just some effort to persuade him to restart the project
its defo the best one 1.2Mb easier
{i get 1.273Mb from acard via scsi adscsi + anyway}

and so will you soon

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:34 pm

simbo wrote:look a jookies ide devil on his site
it has the best chance and doesnt require any change

just some effort to persuade him to restart the project
its defo the best one 1.2Mb easier
{i get 1.273Mb from acard via scsi adscsi + anyway}

and so will you soon


Thanks Simbo
Yes, IDE Devil is a great project, the jump of quality for our atari community.
Jookie please, take again your fantastic work. Not leave it. :(

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Shredder11 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:42 pm

simbo wrote:carry on with this please jookie
as many people would like to use cdrom ide drive as two asci id...the easy way
as well as your great satan series
i know i speak for many


Yep that is how I like to use my STE setup; master IDE hard disk or CF and a slave IDE/SCSI CDROM / WRITER. Very quick and handy.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby Jookie » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:06 am

Ehm, but with IDE getting obsolete it may become difficult to buy the IDE hardware... Anyway, it would need just short time (like month or so) to remake UltraSatan from SD to IDE for hard drives, but I don't know anything about the CD-ROMs - that might take longer. But my current problem for the last half year or so (and even for the next half year) that I'm out of free time due to my personal life. Hopefully it will get better in couple of months.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:00 am

Jookie wrote:Ehm, but with IDE getting obsolete it may become difficult to buy the IDE hardware... Anyway, it would need just short time (like month or so) to remake UltraSatan from SD to IDE for hard drives, but I don't know anything about the CD-ROMs - that might take longer. But my current problem for the last half year or so (and even for the next half year) that I'm out of free time due to my personal life. Hopefully it will get better in couple of months.


Hi Jookie
I thank you for your interesting about acsi/ide project. :cheers:
Unfortunately, I don't know who can help you about the CD-ROMs, but i think the atari community is the ideal place where you can find hardware guru. :)
If he has time, also Rodolphe Czuba could help you with this project?? :roll:
Of course, acsi/ide project need to time, but your personal life has the priority. :wink:
We are all with you Jookie...

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:14 am

Shredder11 wrote:
simbo wrote:carry on with this please jookie
as many people would like to use cdrom ide drive as two asci id...the easy way
as well as your great satan series
i know i speak for many


Yep that is how I like to use my STE setup; master IDE hard disk or CF and a slave IDE/SCSI CDROM / WRITER. Very quick and handy.


I agree with you, Shredder. :wink:

Maurizio

PS: Is very nice to open my STE and to see the motherboard clear, original...no Internal modification, no wires, no traces cut, no components over components, ecc :angel:
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:43 am

3AtariSTE wrote:...
Another CCF? :roll: UltraSatan is not enough?
I think the Atarians need for IDE or SATA hard disk adapters for our STE/Mega STE. 8)
That should be a real step forward. :coffe: .
PS: i am posting and writing...but i don't know if my english is correct (sometime http://www.freetranslation.com is not perfect) :lol:


First to say: that idea/project I had even before first Satan. But as it happens many times it was put aside for longer time.
Don't mix CF with SD. My goal was to make fastest possible adapter. And I did it. Look those speed test results. It is more than possible at all via ACSI port.
Another thing - I still work on design, and hopefully it will work with CD/DVD ROM drives too. And there is still a lot of PATA drives. You don't need SATA with Atari. Need 200-1000 GB drive ? Come-on ... Be reasonable, and connect some CF card of few GB or some older hard drive.
Your english is correct, but you still need to learn a lot, I think :D

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:45 am

simbo wrote:also
why do people get put off by ck saying the acard doesnt work
this is total rubbish
i updated my own ones firmware using a pc scsi card



:lol:
If you read my web page... it say it refuse to work on BOTH my Atari & WinTel PC.
So there is no way for me to update the firmware as it refuse to work on the WinTel PC - yes with a SCSI adapter.
My best hardware knowledge tells me that the device may be DOA....

The IO-Data was able to work & I was able to update the firmware via the same WinTel machine.
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:48 am

Jookie wrote:Ehm, but with IDE getting obsolete it may become difficult to buy the IDE hardware... Anyway, it would need just short time (like month or so) to remake UltraSatan from SD to IDE for hard drives, but I don't know anything about the CD-ROMs - that might take longer. But my current problem for the last half year or so (and even for the next half year) that I'm out of free time due to my personal life. Hopefully it will get better in couple of months.


It is only partially true. As I said in previous reply - it is insane to attach some new SATA drive on Atari machines.
There are still a lot PATA IDE drives in good shape around, and you can buy couple GB, 10-20 GB for few bucks. CF cards are still available, but not in every dragstor :D
ACSI/IDE is certainly good idea. Much wiser than insane combination ACSI/SCSI/IDE ...

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:51 am

3AtariSTE wrote:For my STE, I dream an ACSI/IDE adapter, just like the ICD LINK (ACSI/SCSI adapter)...no internal modification, but all external.
When this project will started, i will be happy.


Paskud fits the bill, kust plug it into the romport. :coffe:
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:56 am

3AtariSTE wrote:If he has time, also Rodolphe Czuba could help you with this project?? :roll:

Really I would rather him complete the CTPCI project.... Didier estimate another year or so for this to finish.... :(
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:00 pm

SofiST wrote:ACSI/IDE is certainly good idea. Much wiser than insane combination ACSI/SCSI/IDE ...


Yes, it is indeed a better idea than linking up ASCI/SCSI/IDE..... but without any action but talk all users of Atari will have to end up using this very insane way of hooking up the IDE devices. :roll:
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:01 pm

alexh wrote:I felt that UltraSatan was a bit expensive. IDE (aka CF) should be cheaper to make. Possibly less compatible though (?) as UltraSatan should be indistinguishable from a standard Atari drive?
...
IDE is already possible on a MegaSTE using a ACSI->SCSI->IDE adapters.

13 years ago you could buy internal IDE adapters from Mario Beckroft

I can confirm that you can use PATA->SATA adapters which support PIO to use SATA drives on both these interfaces.

I think we need to ask ourselves "What do we want to store?"

With patches, TOS/GEM on the Atari ST(e) has a maximum storage capability of 64Gbytes (32*2GB partitions?)

If you could attach anything bigger, how are you going to use it and what are you going to fill it up with anyhow? :D


I will not discuss about prices. But as usual, people talk about compatibility without knowing facts, technical details. Why IDE, what is part of ST Book and Falcon is less compatible than ACSI ?
There is no 'standard Atari drive'. Or better said standard Atari hard disk IF (adapter). As wee know (see thread title, and think why...) ICD made much better solutions than Atari self !

Yes, IDE is possible on every Atari equipped with ACSI SCSI adapter... But, you forget some 'minor' details: Mega STE is limited to 1GB, so with IDE via internal adapter+SCSI/IDE too. Not to mention what all it costs... Then, I have all it - Mega STE with internal adapter, SCSI/IDE adapter (Yamaha, known as good). And it works only with hard disks. Not with CD ROMs or CF cards, not even with SanDisk, what works with everything.

Good points about what storage space (sizes) we need.
It was discussed here zillion times... Any disk over 10 GB on some Atari ST(E) is pure megalomania, I say. Someone please deny me :D

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:06 pm

SofiST wrote:First to say: that idea/project I had even before first Satan. But as it happens many times it was put aside for longer time.
Don't mix CF with SD. My goal was to make fastest possible adapter. And I did it. Look those speed test results. It is more than possible at all via ACSI port.
Another thing - I still work on design, and hopefully it will work with CD/DVD ROM drives too. And there is still a lot of PATA drives. You don't need SATA with Atari. Need 200-1000 GB drive ? Come-on ... Be reasonable, and connect some CF card of few GB or some older hard drive.
Your english is correct, but you still need to learn a lot, I think :D


Yes, Ppera has some very nice designs/concepts, just look at his page.
Including some incredible software.
Ppera should continue to make such great leaps of contribution, i am sure lots of users will want to have a ASCI/IDE or even a DMA/IDE device.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63/CTPCI+ATI+RTL8139+USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:11 pm

SofiST wrote:But, you forget some 'minor' details: Mega STE is limited to 1GB, so with IDE via internal adapter+SCSI/IDE too. Not to mention what all it costs...

This is the same as the 1GB partition size issue of TOS 4.x?
Or this is a hardware issue with SCSI addressing?
Ought to use back ASCI to avoid this issue??
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:25 pm

wongck wrote:This is the same as the 1GB partition size issue of TOS 4.x?
Or this is a hardware issue with SCSI addressing?
Ought to use back ASCI to avoid this issue??


Please read this first: http://petari.000space.com/atari/ASThdFAQ.html

It is very frequent mixing, as I see. Falcon TOS 4.0x has PARTITION size limit of 1GB . What I talked is total disk size limit, better said total accessible size (you can use larger disks, but can access only low 1GB). On that 1GB you can have several partitions, but even partition count is limited.
In fact, all it has something with addressings used... Fur sure that 14 partition limit is result of 16 bit C code/compiler. How now 16 ? 2 floppy A-B, and 14 hard disk partitions C-P - see ? Even 1GB partition limit on Falcon is result of 16-bit code, as there is still limit of max 65535 logical sectors ( with 1GB partition, logical sector size is 16 KB ! ). This is btw. much worse solution than DOS with regular 512 byte sectors and 32-bit sector addressing.

Not SCSI, but ACSI and old, first SCSI revision addressing has only 21 bits for sector addressing, what gives exactly 1GB - total space... Hard disk, adapters don't know about partitions, clusters etc, only about sectors, looking absolute, from disk beginning.

Back to ICD: ICD made solution to override that 1GB limit on ACSI port. It was successful, and likely GE adapter uses same schema. And Satan, UltraSatan now... So, not Atari made really good things .

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:14 pm

SofiST wrote:First to say: that idea/project I had even before first Satan. But as it happens many times it was put aside for longer time.
Don't mix CF with SD. My goal was to make fastest possible adapter. And I did it. Look those speed test results. It is more than possible at all via ACSI port.
Another thing - I still work on design, and hopefully it will work with CD/DVD ROM drives too. And there is still a lot of PATA drives. You don't need SATA with Atari. Need 200-1000 GB drive ? Come-on ... Be reasonable, and connect some CF card of few GB or some older hard drive.
Your english is correct, but you still need to learn a lot, I think :D


Arrghhh, i'm going crazy with dictionary and freetranslation website... 8)
Neither "Speak & Spell" by Texas Instrument help me! :lol: ...does anyone speak Italian? :wink: :)

Well SofiST, that's my thought:
I don't look speed in my STE (or at least is not the priority), but i look max compatibility with devices (i.e. IDE hd and CD/DVD rom drives).
Megafile 30/60 are not fast hard disks, but the speed is acceptable (for me), so why to force the STE to work just like a Ferrari?? :roll:
The ST/STE software is 100, 200, 500Kb (max 4Mb), and not Gigabytes.

About the SATA, no problem...we can forget it. ACSI/IDE will be perfect. :wink:
There is still tons of PATA drives (preferably 1Gb or little more for my STE).
Truly I prefer older hd, SofiST, and that for one reason: I love to listen the hd working with my STE, just like a normal PC or Mac. I hate the silent. :lol:
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:19 pm

wongck wrote:
3AtariSTE wrote:If he has time, also Rodolphe Czuba could help you with this project?? :roll:

Really I would rather him complete the CTPCI project.... Didier estimate another year or so for this to finish.... :(


Than Rodolphe cannot help us! :(
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:25 pm

wongck wrote:Yes, Ppera has some very nice designs/concepts, just look at his page.
Including some incredible software.
Ppera should continue to make such great leaps of contribution, i am sure lots of users will want to have a ASCI/IDE or even a DMA/IDE device.


Sure, i will want to have a ACSI/IDE device. :wink:
The idea to see my STE linking with a tower of adapters (ASCI/SD/SCSI/IDE) freezes me!! :cry:
IDE Devil should be a perfect project...just one card and all external.
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:54 pm

Everybody is different - people has different interests, priorities. Developer needs to listen to all it, and choose what is most wanted, considering price of realisation - what stays from invested time, money (you can not make HW without spending some money on components, parts needed for tests. etec) + production, distribution costs.

Of course, we are all humans, selfish, so no wonder that developer puts his priorities in front :)

Considering ACSI/IDE - it was announced by Techie Aly too, some years ago. Honestly, I doub that we will see it soon, or at all. ACSI is similar to SCSI, but IDE and SCSI/ACSI are pretty different. So, translating commands, parameters is hard task. I don't say that Jookie can not do it. The problem is time needed for.

"I don't look speed in my STE (or at least is not the priority), but i look max compatibility with devices (i.e. IDE hd and CD/DVD rom drives)."

It is again some vague reasoning. What compatibility ? In real world no 100% sure compatibility, and never will be.
From some reason, and I know what is it, IDE is not so popular among Atari people. And that reason is simple: no bus expansion port. So, to add IDE IF, you need to open machine and perform more-less solderings. That's all. All 'compatibility' problems lie here. Look Amiga - IDE, IDE and only IDE. SCSI is and was always more expensive.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:56 pm

SofiST wrote:Everybody is different - people has different interests, priorities. Developer needs to listen to all it, and choose what is most wanted, considering price of realisation - what stays from invested time, money (you can not make HW without spending some money on components, parts needed for tests. etec) + production, distribution costs.

Of course, we are all humans, selfish, so no wonder that developer puts his priorities in front :)

Considering ACSI/IDE - it was announced by Techie Aly too, some years ago. Honestly, I doub that we will see it soon, or at all. ACSI is similar to SCSI, but IDE and SCSI/ACSI are pretty different. So, translating commands, parameters is hard task. I don't say that Jookie can not do it. The problem is time needed for.

"I don't look speed in my STE (or at least is not the priority), but i look max compatibility with devices (i.e. IDE hd and CD/DVD rom drives)."

It is again some vague reasoning. What compatibility ? In real world no 100% sure compatibility, and never will be.
From some reason, and I know what is it, IDE is not so popular among Atari people. And that reason is simple: no bus expansion port. So, to add IDE IF, you need to open machine and perform more-less solderings. That's all. All 'compatibility' problems lie here. Look Amiga - IDE, IDE and only IDE. SCSI is and was always more expensive.



If i need to open machine and modify the hardware for IDE hd, i ever will do. :(
Of course everybody has different priorities.
I love the ACSI/IDE project and the "IDE Devil" by Jookie seems to be very interesting for me (but i think for many people also). 8)
Anyway if this project (acsi/ide) did not have to be practicable...than ACSI/SCSI should be the best solution.

I know that make hardware could be expensive, but if Jookie takes the "IDE Devil" project again in its hands,
he would to ask to the atari community...how many atarians want this "new" acsi/ide adapter?.
(A vote has been perfect) :wink:
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:59 am

Latest postings reminded me about some my thoughts in past.
I was on idea of making ACSI/IDE adapter too. Then I realised that it can be done in 2 ways:
1. is by keeping full ACSI compatibility, what results in complexer design, likely acceptable only with CPLD. Will work with regular drivers and will have autoboot from any TOS.
2. Is by sending IDE commands and parameters via ACSI port, so no need for translation. Only 16-8 bit buffering is needed (what I made already by old Sinclair Spectrum IDE IF design - that machine has 8-bit data bus, as ACSI). It can be done with GAL +some logic chips. But needs own driver and TOS mod for autoboot.

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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby 3AtariSTE » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:24 am

SofiST wrote:Latest postings reminded me about some my thoughts in past.
I was on idea of making ACSI/IDE adapter too. Then I realised that it can be done in 2 ways:
1. is by keeping full ACSI compatibility, what results in complexer design, likely acceptable only with CPLD. Will work with regular drivers and will have autoboot from any TOS.
2. Is by sending IDE commands and parameters via ACSI port, so no need for translation. Only 16-8 bit buffering is needed (what I made already by old Sinclair Spectrum IDE IF design - that machine has 8-bit data bus, as ACSI). It can be done with GAL +some logic chips. But needs own driver and TOS mod for autoboot.


Great the 1st way. :mrgreen: Yes, I think you are a genious, sofiST! :wink:
ACSI/IDE project needs of the hw guru team, and you and jookie (and i hope others) are the ace in the hole. 8)

Today I received the ICD AdSCSI-Plus ST from Simbo, and i see the complexer design of the circuit, the same should be with acsi/ide (with CPLD).
One thing is sure: finally, all atarians could be using their ST/STE with common PATA HD and CD/DVD ROM too. :angel:

Please SofiST (and Jookie too), take this project in your hands.

Maurizio
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wongck
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby wongck » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:52 am

SofiST wrote:2. Is by sending IDE commands and parameters via ACSI port, so no need for translation. Only 16-8 bit buffering is needed (what I made already by old Sinclair Spectrum IDE IF design - that machine has 8-bit data bus, as ACSI). It can be done with GAL +some logic chips. But needs own driver and TOS mod for autoboot.


But you already have your own driver, no?
So now only need the hardware part plus some effort to modify your very own driver.
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SofiST
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Re: Reverse engineering of some ICD Link adapter

Postby SofiST » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:51 pm

wongck wrote:...
But you already have your own driver, no?
So now only need the hardware part plus some effort to modify your very own driver.


Yes. Diverse driver versions. But new IF always requires some major changes in driver.
Wait little... I did not say that I will do it. It was just idea, but I did not decide to go on with ...
However, some potentially good news: at moment working on redesign of cartridge port IDE IF. Keeping high speed it should be able to work on any ST(E), likely Falcon, with any IDE device - so PATA hard disks, CF cards, CD/DVD ROM, writers . All devices, which support PIO3 mode, and I think that everything made in last 12-15 years is such.
I did not make CD ROM driver yet. only some partial code, for movie playback directly from ISO CD. So, to add CD/DVD support in driver again a lot of work will be needed. But it will happen, almost sure.

Now some 'preaching' about how all it works (hard disk on some micro computer), about layers in whole comcept :

1st layer is disk interface or adapter like IDE adapter, ACSI/SCSI adapter, Satandisks etc. The task is to ensure correct electrical connection, timings for all required signals by used standard(s) by host and attached device. Host is micro, attached device is disk, Flash card, CD ROM drive etc. Adapter may be simpler, as IDE adapter, and complexer as full SCSI support adapter or ASCI/SD adapters - where some protocol conversions are needed too (to say simple).
On this level no any filesystem, partitioning - just need to pass required sector address (LBA) and sector count. Even sector size must be not standard 512 bytes.
Possible limitations: I know only about 1GB limit by Mega STE internal ACSI/ACSI, and know it well, as I overrided it. It is result of specific address-target conversion inside adapter.

2ond layer is hard disk driver. The task is to read/write requested sectors from/to drive. So, it must have code for direct HW access - and it is always different depending from used IF. Still no filesystem, but there are partitions (logical drives) - driver gets requests by partition number and relative sector position(s) inside partition. So, driver must calculate absolute position on disk from partition number and relative pos. inside that partition (trivial thing).
Usually, driver code is 32-bit, so limit is 2 TB - for total disk size .

3rd layer is OS filesystem (FAT16 in case of TOS). It has usually own limitations, as we know (not only TOS, but DOS, Windows, even Linux). It must not know HW at all, as all goes by calling hard disk driver, via regular OS calls (RWABS in case of TOS).


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