Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

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Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:30 am

I've an interesting idea! Maybe incorporate a touchpad into a keyboard so no mouse required?

Maybe use a seperate PC keyboard interfaced to an Atari..then use Simbos or ppera help, maybe get that touchpad use useful? Mostly all keyboards that I see outside PC is laptop, so an external PC keyboard with the facility, how to interface????

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby christos » Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:52 am

Do those kbd's follow the ps2 standard? If so all you'd need is an eiffel.

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:47 am

I think maybe it's USB??

simbo

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby simbo » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:21 pm

i use one here the screen is from an old {very} epos terminal but accepts svideo!!!!!
if you can find a touch screen lcd fine it outputs 19.2kbaud
you can use a modified pest code to do it {modified packet interpriter for the mouse position }
then it will work however the mouse pointer take's a few miliseconds to track to a new position
as the pic spews data out to move it


as for serial ps2 touch pads
they will work with by just using a pest.... ask alison for one
she is the one you need to talk to
if they are usb use a converter socket some even come with them in the box

example:
--------
http://www.datapro.net/products/usb-key ... aptor.html

maplin sell them for £ something 99

as usb keyboards / mice will switch to ps2 data exchange on power on / reset init handshake

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:53 pm

I have no idea what was just said. Talking mousepad not touchscreen?

Alison?

simbo

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby simbo » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:20 am

simbo wrote:clean your glasses and actualy read it
as for serial ps2 touch pads
they will work by just using a pest.... ask alison for one
she is the one you need to talk to
if they are usb use a converter socket some even come with them in the box

example:
--------
http://www.datapro.net/products/usb-key ... aptor.html

maplin sell them for £ something 99

as usb keyboards / mice will switch to ps2 data exchange on power on / reset init handshake


plain as day to me i think you have a keyboard with a touch pad built in??
if so this is usualy a seperate cable
one is green one is purple
if its a case that its a usb keyboard with one cable
usualy the two can be seperated
however the same rule applies as above when connecting to ps2

youll find a five pin connection between the mouse pad
rx tx ground power and cs
and the keyboard controller
its also generic usb and will just be buffered and redirected to avoid having to convert its data
and its just usualy assigned a hid driver
but yes will output ps2 type data {ps2mouse} when init challenged
usb is very similar connections wise as ps2 it just uses a balanced network

when you initialy toggle the cs/reset pin or power it up the mouse will reply with a byte
if it detects a reply it will switch to ps2 mode
however with usb mice they look for the reset pulse {same thing }
if they are plugged into a usb host then the host will bind the usb device to a driver
and assign it a slot {a totaly different thing in data}

....! :contract:

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:53 am

No need to be rude! You quote yourself, and quote something you didn't origionally say - very strange.

And why do you always quote a contract to people? I don't have a contract with you. Whats that about?

If what you write is clear to yourself, but, and as I've pointed out before, nobody else can understand, then don't write.

Can we get back to the origional question by someone that makes sense? Cheers!

ppera

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby ppera » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:18 pm

I think that Simbo suggested to talk with Alison about subject...
But we usually use forum and writing (typing) to exchange toughts, ask, discuss, fight :D

I think that idea is not bad. We have serial mouse drivers for Ataris. We have Pest and other PS/2 mouse adpaters for Ataris.

So, it should be compatible. Of course if touchpads use same protocol for position as regular mouses, and don't need special drivers. So, someone should try it...

And I can't resist: Simbo, put yourself together at once ! This is really pain in eyes, head, other human body parts :D ... to read your posts.

simbo

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby simbo » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:08 pm

"Listen you two are tighter than two coats of paint
and i cant be bothered with this stupid childish behaviour from both of you Yellow_Colorz_PDT_31
ffs grow up
i gave you good advice about how to deal with your crap usb keyboards/mousekp dilema :thumbs:
afterall its not a monkey test your being forced to complete ....??? :angel:
and afterall you did 'quote' me in your begging tale??
if you want the queens english my good fellow "go take a run and F jump 'jimmy!'" :mrgreen:
wtf is the point in helping the lamers.... and poor minded fools of the world".......

quote...ppera if it outputs the same data wtf...????? its usb it will also output ps2 if asked its the same standards....
you know fine well it does
ALL usb mice and keyboard EVEN LAPTOPS ones do this even most generic ones used in one mode as part of a made laptop unit {fully unified}



:P

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby karlm » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:56 pm

Alright kids. Behave.

Ratboy - I have had my hands on such a beastie. It's a PS/2 keyboard, with an extention on the right hand side with a glidepad, two button mouse. It uses two connectors, one for keyboard and one for mouse/glidepad. I have also seen one with the glidepad in the middle near the arrow keys.
So all you need is one of these and an eiffel for your atari.
IIRC the one I used was made by Cherry, but there are numerous other ones around. A good place to start looking is the places that sell rack mount cases - these keyboards are very handy for using with KVM switches for server setups.

Personally I think trackpads suck as real mice but they serve a purpose, especially when using in confined spaces. Also you can get serial trackpads/glidepads/touchpads, I've got one or two which I have used with my falcon before using the serial driver.

Hope that helps.

cheers

karlm.

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:30 am

I don't see my origional question in my op post, maybe it was lost or edited?

What I wrote, ain't there now, lets leave it at that.

Censorship. I dunno. See I "PURPOSELY" never used SImbos name??? but his name appears in my OP post now? And half what I write has gone?

If thats the game so be it.

ppera

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby ppera » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:44 pm

simbo wrote:...
I talked about protocol, drivers. not 'same data ' wtf...
Rest of simbos reply I will not comment. Waste of time . Shame for forum having such moderator...

We started with touchpad, now some people talks about trackpads, glidepads. Can someone confirm that they don't need specific drivers with PCs ? (Simbo, I don't care what you dream - we need here proven facts from real users).


simbo says:

look if you have an ANY pad where you touch it
a 3 or 5 byte packet is generated as a set of unsigned bytes
relative to 0 to yield as a vector position -128 - +128 in x and y
so the mouse when init will send the center then if you press is elsewhere it send the new position
and the pest will track to it
if you press outside the screen area on the pad it will travel to the edge of the screen
but mice dont work in any way with resolution until you send them a scaller command
and then other values get sent instead

but they are always an unsigned byte point origin relative on init
to the center as ps2 and microsoft are both bus mice
it will send a single three byte packet
with the second and third byte as 01111111 {middle or 0x7Fhex }
there are several formats to mice
coms serial mice send 5 byte packets ps2 3 microsoft also 3 byte packets

the first byte is usualy
type of mouse followed by buttons data if any
then two bytes for position x-y from 0 {ie 0X7F

might look like
01000100
01111111
01111111

byte1
center of mouse range and button one pressed
leading 0 is for ps protocol the 1 idents it as a ps2 mouse...
byte2 and 3 are X and Y position

similarly a serial mouse is 5byte packets with byte 3 and 4 as an updated position

when you send a byte packet to a pest or eiffel
it will move the mouse to this point !!!
as for a shamefull moderator your just for some reason totaly not infavor of my efforts

afterall im just addressing some of the stupid behaviour from both of you two
head on
it just a game to you ppera like a CB radio and a big ego trip!!!
get off your cloud and my back ///!

http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2mouse/
a link to a resonably accurate mouse faq

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby karlm » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:49 pm

ppera wrote:We started with touchpad, now some people talks about trackpads, glidepads. Can someone confirm that they don't need specific drivers with PCs ?


Ppera - confirmed. For the touchpad/glidepad/trackpad (all the same thing, just different proprietory names I guess). Out ouf the box they work as a two button mouse, with some needing the extra drivers for extra functions. One I used had 5 buttons, you could assign 3 of them similar to what you would with function keys. For example the serial one I have will interpret a double tap on the glide surface as a left double click - no extra drivers are needed. With the software you can also set it up that if you drag two fingers up and down the pad it interprets it similar to a scroll wheel on a scroll mouse...

So to recap - for basic two button 'mouse' functionality no extra drivers are needed. For extended features specific software relating to that device is needed.

Hope that clarifies things.

Cheers
karlm.

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby techie_alison » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:25 am

The original and FIRST device is known as an ALPS GLIDEPOINT. It was pioneered with much hype in the late 80's / very early 90's as a desktop pointing device yet never caught on until laptops became mainstream. It works on the principle of capacitive inductance, with a matrix / mesh on the surface of the pad. Some pads work have to have a finger with all of it's lovely grease, where as others will work with plastic as well, such as a stylus. They were about £70 odd.

Alps actually licence the technology to other manufacturers, like if you dismantle a laptop from say Dell, you'll find Alps stamped on the touchpad PCB. Alps are one of those established companies that sit by in the background making licenced OEM components to go into manufacturer's products. They're based in Ireland I believe.

The GlidePoints are completely bog standard PS2 devices. The host only knows that it's connected to a PS2 pointing device.

Image

I've just sat here for about 10-minutes trying to find them without much luck. As mentioned, they never really caught on as peripheral devices. The other thing to point out about USB input devices is that many are PS2 compatible, just that they don't mention it in the blurb. The market is very much driven by bums on seats with money in their pockets and eagerly salvating at the latest piece of technology which they desperately need for their future survival.

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:23 am

I hate to expend so much effort in a thread....

Thats a nice device you have there Alison (bet thats not the first time you heard that line eh??)

Basically what I want to do is to remove the touchpad device from a USB or PS2 device, as the keyboard part is u/s, and transplant it into a gaming chair, on a PC, then from there, maybe incorporate it into a device for the future? maybe a retro Atari device, but maybe as a pickup for the next gen gaming device that isn't out yet???

But the project leader didnt understand simbo, so culled the project, but I wish to prototype this, SO-----

Alison, would there be a way to incorporate the device posted into a remote, wireless solution ?

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby karlm » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:50 am

Ratboy - you don't need to remove one from a keyboard - as Aly posted there are models that are touchpad only. There are also wireless versions - no need to reinvent the wheel -
http://www.adesso.com/products.asp
The wireless ones usually have a usb or ps/2 dongle that you plug into your machine - the only problem I found with wireless was playing games on PC's they tend yo have a little lag time. Used to flog my mate into submission on Quake III because I was using a wired keyboard and he was wireless ...

So if I get what you wrote above correct, you want a wireless glide/track/touchpad to stick onto the armrest or whatever on a gaming chair!?

oops - maybe a bum steer there - no wireless pads listed only ps/2 and usb - but still somewhere to put you on the right track.

ppera

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby ppera » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:40 pm

karlm wrote:...
Ppera - confirmed. For the touchpad/glidepad/trackpad (all the same thing, just different proprietory names I guess). Out ouf the box they work as a two button mouse, with some needing the extra drivers for extra functions. One I used had 5 buttons, you could assign 3 of them similar to what you would with function keys. For example the serial one I have will interpret a double tap on the glide surface as a left double click - no extra drivers are needed. With the software you can also set it up that if you drag two fingers up and down the pad it interprets it similar to a scroll wheel on a scroll mouse...

So to recap - for basic two button 'mouse' functionality no extra drivers are needed. For extended features specific software relating to that device is needed.


Thanks Karl May :D It is what we need here.

I was sceptic because touchpad works different than mouse - it detects not movement but point of touching.

ppera

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby ppera » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:46 pm

Rat boy wrote:I hate to expend so much effort in a thread....
But the project leader didnt understand simbo, so culled the project, but I wish to prototype this, SO-----
Alison, would there be a way to incorporate the device posted into a remote, wireless solution ?


I must say that you are pretty unclear here. What project leader? Culled ? .... English please ! :D

I think that wireles or not wireless is irrelevant. Usually all modern pointing devices use PS2 protocol, on USB connection too. Some use real USB, but we better forget them, since no Atari drivers for them.
All my USB mouses work with my PS2-Atari adapter on Ataris. There is MS intellimouse, some Genius, and one older wireless Logitec (onlyone non-optical) .

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:47 am

ppera wrote:
Rat boy wrote:I hate to expend so much effort in a thread....
But the project leader didnt understand simbo, so culled the project, but I wish to prototype this, SO-----
Alison, would there be a way to incorporate the device posted into a remote, wireless solution ?


I must say that you are pretty unclear here. What project leader? Culled ? .... English please ! :D

I think that wireles or not wireless is irrelevant. Usually all modern pointing devices use PS2 protocol, on USB connection too. Some use real USB, but we better forget them, since no Atari drivers for them.
All my USB mouses work with my PS2-Atari adapter on Ataris. There is MS intellimouse, some Genius, and one older wireless Logitec (onlyone non-optical) .


My friend (the project leader - as it's his project - not mine), has a BROKEN PC keyboard, there was coffee spilt on it. The touchpad/mousepad, whatever you want to call it was rescued. This pad is the project to be transplanted into a chair - ex keyboard.

The chair cannot be wired to a computer - its a chair. So has to be wireless. The origional keyboard that got trashed was wireless. (I think)

The project leader didn't understand Simbos response, so went out and bought a chair that suits him, but I'd like to carry on with the project, as there may be a market for this?

If I was sitting in my lounge with a TV that was connected to the internet, in 5 years time, then I would want a wireless, remote, mousepad in the furniture.....this is the future.

Any other discrepancies to clear up? Just ask!

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby PaulB » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:41 am

It's a novel idea and most definitely do-able but have you thought about how to power this thing? Battery power alone wouldn't really be an option in the long term, so either the chair would have to be plugged into a power socket or perhaps a small solar panel + rechargeable battery would be enough. Just a thought.

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby Rat boy » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:14 am

Already on that Paul!

The chair for the project is a gaming chair, thats kinda like a rocking chair, with built in speakers already, but the design flaw is the wires...

So...in true Simbo styleee the electrical pickup is a solar panel (already sourced), with a motorbike battery backup, so the panel keeps the battery topped up, but in future looking at a tesla style hookup, so the chair sits on a mat, that is plugged in, and by induction, the chair battery picks up the charge.

These are coming to market soon (if not already), for mobile phones, so there is more than enough battery charge.

I gotta patent this quick!

simbo

Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby simbo » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:26 am

ive seen wireless versions of this type of game chair for pc my son has one like yours thou
the problem is your pal has the version for ps2/3 etc much like my son

and not the type with wireless keyboard and mouse support for the pc
it comes with a dongle for usb/ps2
and HAS oiptimised drivers for gaming
as for touch pads im not sure
it redirects the joystick /pad also thru usb/ps2
but comes in two flavours
usb only ps2 only

there are heeps of them on the market
as for a product this is a no brainer

tesla invented the tesla coil
a high voltage high output power transmition coil arraingment
in the hope of being able to transmit over great distances power in the form of electrical energy
that could be tapped using an 'antenna'

who your looking for is not tesla or youll die


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hb ... ndmut.html
people arent fully aware what effects low frequency energy induction devices will have on flesh long term
so im sure there is a scientist somewhere right now doing strange experiments with lab rats and coils of wire etc......

its worth adding that ive used this type of setup with mutual coils before to charge batteries
its very lossy
one way to reduce loss is to make a spiral inductor using .75mm ecw about 12cm accross for both tx and rx coils
use a 555 timer to drive the tx coil
and on the other coil youll need a rectifer and a resoviour cap
or you can use a charge pump chip

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby FujiMan » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Hi all,

I got one of these beasties for the Mac ADB. I'll crack it open and see the goodies inside...

FujiMan

techie_alison wrote:The original and FIRST device is known as an ALPS GLIDEPOINT.

Image

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Re: Modifying a touchpad...maybe ppera helps?

Postby ppera » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:41 pm

simbo wrote:
tesla invented the tesla coil
a high voltage high output power transmition coil arraingment
in the hope of being able to transmit over great distances power in the form of electrical energy
that could be tapped using an 'antenna'

who your looking for is not tesla or youll die ...p


:mrgreen: Well. This is 'very' informative, and very related to this thread...
So, poor tesla (not Tesla, just tesla ! ) used his brain for totally useless things instead thinking about what we will need here in 2008 - low distance, low coltage. And PS/2 compatible ! :D


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