Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

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olivierg
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:51 am

Hi,

The schematic is created, next step PCB.
I have open my MEGA ST Keyboard, is MX key.

Thanks
Olivier
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TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby mikro » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:52 am

Greenious wrote:All ST/STE/TT/F030 use the same keyboard, although with different looks/iterations.

And the basic schematic of the keyboard can be found here: http://dev-docs.atariforge.org/files/Me ... 9-1987.pdf
page 8 or 9 I think.

I've seen another schematic of the keyboard elsewhere aswell.

Just for the record, that is the Mega ST(/MegaSTE/TT?) keyboard. Not fundamentally different but yet different. The STE/Falcon one can be found here: http://dev-docs.atariforge.org/files/At ... Manual.pdf page 95.

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:25 am

Is for TT, mega ST ans Mega STE.
A create AZERTY Keyboard with actual layout, like this (but not exactly)

But i van add RJ45 for other machine, after quick view, the difference is very low.

Thanks
Olivier
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TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:51 am

Update schematic: add RJ45 for connecting to other ATARI.
Just add:
1) jumper for reset
2) LED for Floppy
3) Line Filter for new signal.

Thanks
Olivier
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TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby MM41 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:32 am

Good idea to remake a keyboard !!! :D ,

i have realised a little circuit to use a ST keyboard for replacement to MEGA , it's just for fun :D
http://www.labibleatari.fr/pages/divers ... A%20ST.htm
You can use like full STF or just external keyboard when RJ12 plugged (automatically separated electrically)
Do not use both in the same time :lol:

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby mpattonm » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:38 pm

olivierg wrote:I have in project create Keyboard for my TT with Cherry MX Key.
I know there are solutions for plugging a PS2 or USB keyboard on the atari, but 'bof', there is a lot of key that does not serve anything.
So I wanted to know what was the communication protocol used by the atari.
If there is someone who has explanatory material, it would help me see if can used an MCU (AVR) to do this.

This is probably a very expensive approach, but I find it more interesting.
I have estimate the price + 200 euro.

What exactly is your goal, if I may ask? Is it to recreate original PCB with original parts and original layout but with use of Cherry switches?
I thought TT keyboards are already based on these. Mega keyboards certainly are. If not and TT keyboard contains same rubber dome type keys as used in all 520/1040s, are you aware, that keycaps between these two type are definitely _not_ interchangeable? They look alike, but in fact some key dimensions are different.
Or do you want to go futher and make new keyboard from scratch with new chassis, keycaps etc?

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:40 pm

1) Small explain what: I have TT with QWERTZU Keyboard, but i speak French (Belgium) and i use AZERTY Keyboard.
It's difficult to found the AZERTY keyboard (Mega STE or TT) and good state and price, i follow all auction on eBay from 1 year.

2) My first idea is created complete keyboard with MCU like AVR, but Greenious has suggested to use the original MCU, for me is very good idea, it's very simple solution, "No need to reinvent the wheel", im not search to create new keyboard just update.

3) The final idea is create the PCB with actual PC layout, but only with the ATARI key (95) and the original MCU. It's probably more expensive but nice and fun. Actualy the schematic is finish (not verified, i check twice), the next step is create PCB for final estimate price, but i ave not choice i needed this keyboard.

Thanks
Olivier
PS: I am not king on hardware, but i search solution for use the HD6301 with external ROM for using the last IKB firmware, but is not urgent.
TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby Maeke » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:53 am

deleted my comment on the reset signal, it has already been adressed.

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby frank.lukas » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:23 am

What about to use a Eiffel Interface with a PS/2 or AT Keyboard and a PS/2 Wheel Mouse ?
fancy Atari Musik anDA Dance "Agare Hinu Harukana" 1998 ATARI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX10fxb5eYE

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby joska » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:00 pm

olivierg wrote:2) My first idea is created complete keyboard with MCU like AVR, but Greenious has suggested to use the original MCU, for me is very good idea, it's very simple solution, "No need to reinvent the wheel", im not search to create new keyboard just update.


Yes, that is a good idea if you want to make an exact replica of the original keyboard. However, then you're still dependent on external (and not very good) solutions if you want to use modern mice. If you reimplement the controller on a modern microcontroller, you can add support for USB mice and joysticks for next to nothing. Or even add USB HID client, so you can use your new keyboard both on your Ataris and on your PC/Mac.
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby mpattonm » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:10 pm

Yup, my point.

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:48 pm

joska wrote:Yes, that is a good idea if you want to make an exact replica of the original keyboard. However, then you're still dependent on external (and not very good) solutions if you want to use modern mice. If you reimplement the controller on a modern microcontroller, you can add support for USB mice and joysticks for next to nothing. Or even add USB HID client, so you can use your new keyboard both on your Ataris and on your PC/Mac.


If I wanted to have a USB keyboard and mouse, I would connect to my CosmosEX interface. It will be cheaper and faster.
I am aware that this type of assembly is of no interest to anyone, it is not the idea.

Forget my question in this topics.

Thanks
Olivier
TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby joska » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:57 pm

On the contrary, it's of great interest. I'm just suggesting another solution for the controller. Reusing the original controller is a missed opportunity IMO. Unless you plan on creating a mouse replacement as well of course.

Btw I don't suggest to connect a USB keyboard to the ST. I suggest support for USB mice and joysticks in the keyboard.
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:54 pm

I am not king of programming MCU, is not for me.
TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby Greenious » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:29 pm

joska wrote:On the contrary, it's of great interest. I'm just suggesting another solution for the controller. Reusing the original controller is a missed opportunity IMO. Unless you plan on creating a mouse replacement as well of course.

Btw I don't suggest to connect a USB keyboard to the ST. I suggest support for USB mice and joysticks in the keyboard.


Actually, there is already such solutions. Like Ry´s MK-II.

https://retro.7-bit.pl/?lang=en&go=proj ... e=rys_mkii

Originally developed for Amiga, but got firmware for Atari aswell. (Not that it is hard to convert between amiga/atari configured mouse)
Updated my guides as of june 28th, 2016. Check'em out and feedback!
viewtopic.php?t=5040

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby joska » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:45 pm

Greenious wrote:Actually, there is already such solutions. Like Ry´s MK-II.


Yes, I'm aware of these. I've made one myself as well :) However, they depend on the Atari mouseport which has limited resolution. Also, you can't support things like scrollwheels or third button, and you can't assign keys to joypad buttons (third joystick for Super Sprint, or playing Head over Heels with just a pad/stick). All of this is quite trivial if the adapter is connected directly to the IKBD port instead of the mouseport.

Of course, it doesn't *have* to be inside the keyboard. It can also be connected between the keyboard and computer. But IMO if you build a keyboard from scratch it would be nice to have such features built-in :)
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:55 pm

Hi,

The MKii is solution to add the USB to my project, but is not open. I have order the MKii, i recieve next week.
I disassemble, to get MCU and create schematic from PCB.

But today i found the SmallyMouse2 : http://www.waitingforfriday.com/?p=827
Completely open. If it works I can easily add to my project.

Actualy, i have ordered all parts for create the keyboard ans launch print of keycaps. I waiting parts like stabalizer for create pcb in bulgaria (it's lower price for this size 480x130mm), i have tested the routing is ok, no problem.

thanks
Olivier
Ps: May be i need to create new topic, Because we are far from the original subject. (No comments from the moderators).
TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby joska » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:42 pm

olivierg wrote:But today i found the SmallyMouse2 : http://www.waitingforfriday.com/?p=827
Completely open. If it works I can easily add to my project.


This has the exact same limitations as all the other adapters that use the Atari mouseport. It's not something that can be solved by an adapter, it's a limitation in the mouse port itself. If you want to have more functionality than a standard mouse you have to bypass the original IKBD controller and generate the IKBD packets yourself. That means either to replace the original keyboard controller, or to intercept the keyboard<->Atari communication and insert your own packets.
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:15 pm

OK, I understand what you want, but I do not need any additional functionality. In this case, as I say above, I have a cosmosEX.
I just want an AZERTY keyboard, with the actual layout.

Thanks and sorry for disturb :wink:
Olivier
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby grobda » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:44 pm

has anyone made a PS2 or USB to ST IKBD adaptor using an arduino nano?

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby joska » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:53 pm

grobda wrote:has anyone made a PS2 or USB to ST IKBD adaptor using an arduino nano?


Yes, but only as an experiment. It is pretty easy, use one of the existing PS/2-libraries to read from the PS/2 keyboard and convert the keystrokes to IKBD packets. However, you also need to add support for mice and joysticks. Joystick is no problem, neither are Atari mice. But PS/2 mice is not so easy, as the existing PS/2-libraries does not work well with more than one device.

Probably easier to make an Eiffel if you want to go for PS/2 devices.
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby grobda » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:28 pm

I'm not bothered about the mouse being PS/2; quadrature is fine, I just want a cheap solution to a broken keyboard.

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:19 pm

My solution is not low cost, because:
1) the low cost manufacturing (in Bulgaria, i have not found lower price) PCB 480x130mm = +/- 90 euro
2) the key switch and keycaps and accessories +/- 107 euro.
The complet BOM is +/- 225 euro.

If your search low cost solution the cosmosEX is good +/- 100 euro using standard USB keyboard (and USB mouse).
TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1

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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby joska » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:47 pm

olivierg wrote:If your search low cost solution the cosmosEX is good +/- 100 euro using standard USB keyboard (and USB mouse).


I'd say that's pretty expensive compared to using a £2 Arduino Nano :) Of course, CosmosEx does a lot more but if you only need a working keyboard...
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Re: Mega ST keyboard and 1040 ST

Postby olivierg » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:02 pm

Hi,

Today, I received PCB:
atari_keyboard_pcb.jpg

Assembling this week-end.
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TT030 4/32 TOS 3.06, Mega ST4, Mega ST2, 1040 STE, 2 x 1040STFM, 2 x 1040STF, MegaFile 30, Lynx 1


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