Biggest flaw in Atari ST's design

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Biggest flaw in Atari ST's design

No BUS expansion slot
39
26%
Keyboard design
9
6%
Usage of FAT (MS DOS) filesystem
1
1%
TOS
1
1%
ACSI port
19
13%
Video subsystem
42
28%
YM chip for audio
20
14%
Other
17
11%
 
Total votes: 148

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Postby stimpy » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:26 am

FatRakoon wrote:No, your not wrong.

It was originally a 68000 and it was originally termed the SuperST IIRC


I found it it was the Atari FX-1 http://www.maedicke.de/atari/hardware/sparrow.htm

With a sparrow daughtercard to give it the 030, not too disimilar to the PAK 030 cards for STs. This was all later stuck on a motherboard to make a Falcon.
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Postby FatRakoon » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:26 pm

Of course!

CODENAME SPARROW

Thats the one.

I think being called the FX-1 sounds great... They should have stuck with that.

Calling it a Sparrow sounds like a poncey computer but the Falcon... Much better.
MSTE @ 16Mhz : 4MB+8MB : Magic & Jinnee
TT030 @ 32Mhz : 10+16MB : Magic & Jinnee
Falcon060 @ 95Mhz : 16+512MB : MiNT & Jinnee
More PCs than PC World has... Probably

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Postby exxos » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:49 pm

I have not voted, as its hard to say really. I think everything has been said already.

Video, well the ST was a bit low tech, but hey they came back with the STE, better video and slightly better sound tech. So I think they were along the right lines there. They also moved over to simms to make upgrades of ram easier.

All was good progress, though I feel they should have done a STE MK2 or something BEFORE they did the Falcon. Same as a STE but faster CPU. Would have taken a lot more dev time but would have made a real nice STE. My STE has the 020 cpu upgrade by TUS, runs pretty fast indeed. Atari should have done that in the first place!

Trouble is, by the time they brought out the Falcon, it was really too late. They spent far to much time in redesigning the entire thing. Was a fantastic thing the Falcon, but They should have taken slightly smaller jumps. Atari also spent too much time developing consoles trying to outdo other manufactures of the time.

Why did they go wrong ? trying to outdo other people, taking far to long in dev and never producing enough tech. A small revamp of the STE I think should have come before anything else. When they jumped from ST to STE there was some nice stuff added. Though the jump was to far to the falcon, they just took too long. All the dev work cost them a lot, made the falcon expensive.

I think they just wanted to produce the best but just took far to long and by the time the Falcon was in production it just was game over for them.

Would have been nice to see the STE with a internal IDE, SCSI built in, 030 cpu, bascially the falcon, but they also added the DSP , assume to make a better sound system, great! A lot of 3rd parties were already producing tech for the STE, hard drives, CPU boosters. Why didn't Atari to take all those ideas and build a MK2 STE! The work had already been done, all Atari would have had to do is revise the motherboard.

Though they went all out on the falcon rather than just upgrading the STE. If the falcon had came out instead of the STE than that would have been fantastic, though probably about 10 years too late ;-)

waffle done :)
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Postby FatRakoon » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:11 pm

My feeling towards the falcon in teh way of it being in the ST style case rather than the Mega / TT style seperate keyboard job, is this :-

At the time, had it been done with seperate Keyboard, and of course, mouse, it would have made it a more of a "PRO" computer, and making it in the ST style made it more of a "HOME" computer.

I am unsure as to whether Atari also had this in their minds too, not just in the way of saving space or rather "Improving on the ST Design".

Had they chosen to adopt the seperates idea in teh first place and completely re-designed it from scratch, the whole thing would have cost them a lot less than how they did it.

I also feel still that 16Mhz was the biggest killer of the Falcon, especially given that the TT brought out before the Falcon, had already been proven to be slow compared to the competition as the 50Mhz 030 was already out.

Going back to a seriously poor 16MHZ was a serious mistake.

Its just like someone bringing out a 500Mhz PC today... Sure you might sell a few, but thats all you'll ever sell.

And I wonder how many people who bought a Falcon as their one and only Atari? How many of us actually had an ST and upgraded to a Falcon, because at this time, I dont know of a single person out there, who bought a Falcon as their first Atari.
MSTE @ 16Mhz : 4MB+8MB : Magic & Jinnee
TT030 @ 32Mhz : 10+16MB : Magic & Jinnee
Falcon060 @ 95Mhz : 16+512MB : MiNT & Jinnee
More PCs than PC World has... Probably

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Postby christos » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:26 pm

FatRakoon wrote:And I wonder how many people who bought a Falcon as their one and only Atari? How many of us actually had an ST and upgraded to a Falcon, because at this time, I dont know of a single person out there, who bought a Falcon as their first Atari.


It's a pleasure to meet you ;). OK my first was an Atari 130XE but till this day I have never owned an ST.

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Postby calimero » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:33 pm

Poobah wrote:
And 360k drives, no chunky pixel modes.


It will be to memory expensive at that time to have chunky mod!
I remeber that I read interview back then with Shiraz Shivji, he was very proud on ST, he talk about millisecounds... :) and he was proud on Shifter, he talk how Amiga lost time on some... I do not remember on what :)

but main point that he was very proud on ST. ;)

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Postby ppera » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:41 pm

calimero wrote:It will be to memory expensive at that time to have chunky mod!
I remeber that I read interview back then with Shiraz Shivji, he was very proud on ST, he talk about millisecounds... :) and he was proud on Shifter, he talk how Amiga lost time on some... I do not remember on what :)


Actually, he talked about nanoseconds. ST has good solved memory access, and no slowdown caused by video RAM access - while by Amiga there is 'slow RAM' where video buffer is.
Despite it, video subsystem got here most negative votes.

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Postby calimero » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:58 pm

I see that video system has most votes :) odd... maybe :)

after Amiga video capabilities I think that ST was secound placed back than in 1985...

btw ppera did you maybe read that interview or you know where I can find it?

ppera wrote:Well - 'Not much power for not much price'.

I think that Amiga 1200 had similar CPU clock as Falcon, but was cheaper.
However, it is not much known: Falcon has 16-bit data bus, not 32-bit !

It slowdowns machine at least 30% in compare to 32-bit bus. And CPU is real 32-bit. But Atari saved on PCB....


Rodolphe Czuba explain why Atari decide to put 16bit memory bus...
http://www.czuba-tech.com/CT2/english/technic.htm - maybe again ;)

one most important thing about atari TT/F030: Shiraz Shivji left after after completing Atari TT. Atari Falcon is design with someone else in lead position...
Falcon was expensive in 1993, if they put 50HMz 68030 it would be to expensive...

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Postby FatRakoon » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:44 pm

christos wrote:
FatRakoon wrote:And I wonder how many people who bought a Falcon as their one and only Atari? How many of us actually had an ST and upgraded to a Falcon, because at this time, I dont know of a single person out there, who bought a Falcon as their first Atari.


It's a pleasure to meet you ;). OK my first was an Atari 130XE but till this day I have never owned an ST.


The last line of my own words that you quoted me..

As I said...

I dont know anyone who bought a FALCON as their first ATARI.

Not ST... ATARI.

LOL

But, Im am still glad to meet you.

How do you do? See the footie last night? etc etc ROFL

Seriously though, you surely see how I am seeing it?

Its like the Jaguar... Who, outside of the Atari circle, knew about it? Who knew about the Falcon?

When the Amiga came out, which I think was like 7 days before the ST, I had it drummed into my head that the Amiga was Commodore's new ultimate machine... I hardly knew a thing about this so called ST? I never saw it advertised once!
The one and only reason I got the ST was because I had an Amstrad PC1640 and that was running GEM... A MAte got his ST about a week after I got my Amiga and I saw him running STOS, and messing about with that and when he quit, I saw the GEM Desktop, and like a fool, and knowing that I had a fair bit of software for GEM ( Paint, and erm... Well, paint anyway ) I assumed it would work on this ST thingy, and so I got one.

I never once saw an advert or anything, and had my mate not bought one , then I would never have bought one either!

Same with the Jag, same with the Falcon... Not once have I seen anything about them anywhere outside of an Atari Magazine... And even those I had to subscribe to because mo newsagent would supply them.

So, in your case, you had an Atari XE and thats great, but I still wonder how many people bought a Falcon as their first Atari?
MSTE @ 16Mhz : 4MB+8MB : Magic & Jinnee
TT030 @ 32Mhz : 10+16MB : Magic & Jinnee
Falcon060 @ 95Mhz : 16+512MB : MiNT & Jinnee
More PCs than PC World has... Probably

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Postby exxos » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:55 pm

FatRakoon wrote:My feeling towards the falcon in teh way of it being in the ST style case rather than the Mega / TT style seperate keyboard job, is this :-

At the time, had it been done with seperate Keyboard, and of course, mouse, it would have made it a more of a "PRO" computer, and making it in the ST style made it more of a "HOME" computer.

I am unsure as to whether Atari also had this in their minds too, not just in the way of saving space or rather "Improving on the ST Design".

Had they chosen to adopt the seperates idea in teh first place and completely re-designed it from scratch, the whole thing would have cost them a lot less than how they did it.

I also feel still that 16Mhz was the biggest killer of the Falcon, especially given that the TT brought out before the Falcon, had already been proven to be slow compared to the competition as the 50Mhz 030 was already out.

Going back to a seriously poor 16MHZ was a serious mistake.

Its just like someone bringing out a 500Mhz PC today... Sure you might sell a few, but thats all you'll ever sell.

And I wonder how many people who bought a Falcon as their one and only Atari? How many of us actually had an ST and upgraded to a Falcon, because at this time, I dont know of a single person out there, who bought a Falcon as their first Atari.



I never had a STE at the time, I went from STFM to Falcon. Using the DSP was great to play tracker tunes at 50khz, leaving the cpu free. So it did have *some* kick. Graphics, great, good sound, pretty much great all around, but yes, 16mhz was a bit naff to say the least. The video supports good colours and some more "interesting" res's, but video still somewhat slow.

If they were going to all the trouble to design all these chips, they would have been better just using stock graphics cards, yep, ISA/PCI, anything they could use. Expansion slots, they loose the case to a more PC type thing, but hey we are taking more like the TT now ? I think they wanted the falcon to be a audio machine/home computer ? just following on from the ST days. I mean we can watch the old music videos and say "hey they have a ST" but if it was a PC type thing, then we would never know that! Maybe they decide to keep the classic case. I like it, but when you start adding in power into a computer you just *have* to use a bigger case, then move onto expansion slots etc.

chris

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Postby FatRakoon » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:37 am

>50KHZ Tracker Mods
The STE is very capable of playing Tracker Mods at 50K.. And even having plenty of CPU time left too! -Not compared it against a Falcon, because funnily enough, even thoguh I hav ea fairly ridiculously large collection of MODS and my STE was mainly only used for ProTracker, I have never actually played a Mod on the Falcon???

Explaination on that however, is that in teh short time I have had the Falcon, I have spent most of that time, moaning about how poor it is rather than just getting on with it and using the thing.

At least I have taken my Sequencing back up seriously and even though I have legal copies of CuBase 3.1 and Score, I have actually gone out and bought Audio too, just for the Falcon, so at least thats something.

>Keeping the case ( See it in Music Vids etc )

Do you know... I didnt look at it like that, and you are right too! - I have seen a quick glimpse of an ST and instantly you know exactly what it is / was... Then again, I have also seen a few glimpses of a MSTE / TT and instantly recognised it as an Atari. Maybe, maybe not, but definitely the ST/Falcon is instantly recognisable though.

>Slow Video
Understatement, although the 16 Colour mode is fairly close to TT-MED in speed, the 256 colour mode is awful.

>Bigger Case.
Yes, this is a path that Im going to have to walk sooner or later, although I seriously doubt Im stupid enough to pay the prices asked, and so, Its very probable, that I am going to build a case out of wood, and mount the Falcon inside that as-is.

My old MegaST fit nicely into a Desktop PC AT Case a while back, but the STE simply failed to fit into anything taht I got hold of and at the time, I just wasnt going to do a BIG job.
The Falcon however is a nesesity due to the CT63 and that needing a PC PSU.... Plus, in the last several years since then, I have built and customised many PC cases... This will pose a different problem, but should not be difficult? ( He says crossing his fingers )
MSTE @ 16Mhz : 4MB+8MB : Magic & Jinnee
TT030 @ 32Mhz : 10+16MB : Magic & Jinnee
Falcon060 @ 95Mhz : 16+512MB : MiNT & Jinnee
More PCs than PC World has... Probably

ppera

Postby ppera » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:46 am

calimero wrote:...btw ppera did you maybe read that interview or you know where I can find it?
.


It was in 'Moj Mikro' in 1985. Unfortunately I have no more those old magazines after my moving to other state...
If you have it may scan that article ?

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Postby calimero » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:38 am

ppera wrote:
calimero wrote:...btw ppera did you maybe read that interview or you know where I can find it?
.


It was in 'Moj Mikro' in 1985. Unfortunately I have no more those old magazines after my moving to other state...
If you have it may scan that article ?


O... com'on ppera - you are from ex-yugoslavia? :) :)

Yes, I have all Moj Mikro, Racunari, Svet Kompjutera. Now I remeber article, if I found some time I can scan it but I'm not sure how many of us could read it (it is on serbo-croatian language... :/)

Short message: odakle si? gde si sad? :) ja sam iz Stare Pazova (30km od beograda), zovem se Milan Kovac. Ako hoces ostavi mi neki contact email. btw onaj tvoj eksperiment sa playback of video on ST je jako zanimljiv, kad jednog dana zavrsim wet trebace mi tako nesto da bih ubacio Video sekvence u igru :) pozdrav!

ppera

Postby ppera » Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:05 pm

calimero wrote:
ppera wrote:
calimero wrote:...btw ppera did you maybe read that interview or you know where I can find it?
.


It was in 'Moj Mikro' in 1985. Unfortunately I have no more those old magazines after my moving to other state...
If you have it may scan that article ?


O... com'on ppera - you are from ex-yugoslavia? :) :)

Yes, I have all Moj Mikro, Racunari, Svet Kompjutera. Now I remeber article, if I found some time I can scan it but I'm not sure how many of us could read it (it is on serbo-croatian language... :/)...



You don't remember my article about FSII for Atari ST in Rachunari ? Shame on you! :D

I meant that scan for myself, not to post here. And I can translate it to English, if someone want to read it (and smile about my grammar).

Drop me a PM or e-mail...

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Postby Desty » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Great thread, a lot of interesting reading there.
Personally, I voted first for the YM chip. A lot of people have countered with two arguments: 1) It has a cool, unique sound: how could you hate it? and 2) The restrictions on the chip forced composers to be "more creative".

I actually got to really like its cool, unique sound as well - especially playing games like No Second Prize and... err... listening to the LED Storm tune by the amazing Tim Follin (what a GENIUS... you gotta hear the C64 soundtrack to "Sly Spy" by himself and his brother Geoff - awe-inspiring). But that doesn't mean the chip wasn't rubbish given the quality of hardware available at the time.
And the second argument really doesn't make much sense to me. I'm personally a big fan of Debussy - especially his piano works. While I'm sure he could have produced some amazing stuff with a 3 note polyphonic Casio childrens' keyboard by being ingeniously clever, I also think there's a fair likelihood that he would have just not bothered and given up, and anyway, it doesn't mean he would have produced worse music without those limitations.

Heavy restrictions on the soundchip meant people had to do clever things to make a good sound... but that by no means indicates that without those restrictions they would have made poor music or would somehow have been less creative.

Apart from this, I was a bit disappointed by the resolution and amount of colour available on my STFM, but not that much since I was coming from a C64.

Retrospectively, I suppose Atari made a bit of a mistake by treating the ST a bit like a fire-and-forget missile... not revisiting it enough to keep it alive via upgrades. PC design took off, I think, partly because the system was designed to be somewhat generalised and easy enough to upgrade in a modular fashion.

Anyway, bitching session aside, I really loved my ST. I often saw two dawns in a row while plugging away in GFA Basic (to make some useless stuff I never released, of course). Contrary to what some people have said, I liked the keyboard, even with its relatively high mushiness level.
tá'n poc ar buile!

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Postby PaulB » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:08 pm

Desty wrote:I often saw two dawns in a row while plugging away in GFA Basic (to make some useless stuff I never released


Same here. Did that loads of times. My mother used to shout at me because the light from my room was shining into hers keeping her awake but I just had to find out how to make that 'something' work properly.

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Postby Desty » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm

What's annoying is that, now that I need to do all-nighters or at least do a lot of coding (and worse - need to write part of the backend for a compiler as an assignment... reading the notes is melting my brain), I seem to get tired much more quickly than when I was like... 14. I tell myself I'll make it till 10am or so then grab a few hours sleep... then I start fading out at 4am.
Maybe it's because doing it back then was for kicks, and it was whatever I was interested in at the time...

Woe!
tá'n poc ar buile!

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Postby PaulB » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:01 pm

No I think it's just because you're getting older. It happens to everyone. :D

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Postby Desty » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:07 pm

Is there any cure? ;)
tá'n poc ar buile!

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Postby PaulB » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:22 pm

I wish I knew of a cure. Except for some kind of doctors prescription I can't think of anything that can fix it.

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Postby FatRakoon » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:42 pm

36 Years old and Im still not gettign to bed till 5am, although I got married a few hours ago and so last night, I got a good nights sleep ( Went to bed at 4am ... Back up at 6:30 )

You know you are too used to laty's when you can only drink stone cold coffees - Oh the number of times you just get into that last bit of irritating code that you are never happy with only to start hearing the bird tweet again outside... Murder it is... Murder.

First its your mum whinging abotu yo staying up
Then its your Girlfriend...

Then its your next girlfriend cos the last one couldnt hack you staying up so late...

Carry on with the GF list tilleventually you fond one that likes the fact that you stay in and dont go out to the boozer and is happy with you as you are...

Then get married to her ASAP.

Now, Im just waiting for the "You aint doing that now your married" routine...

Then get a divorce...

LOL

Anyway, Im back into the Ataris now, and so, whats going to happen?

Im lost when it comes to Atari coding and so naturally Im going to try to get back into it all and this requires a few late nights... etc etc etc etc
MSTE @ 16Mhz : 4MB+8MB : Magic & Jinnee
TT030 @ 32Mhz : 10+16MB : Magic & Jinnee
Falcon060 @ 95Mhz : 16+512MB : MiNT & Jinnee
More PCs than PC World has... Probably

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Postby PaulB » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:52 pm

Congratulations FatRakoon. Hope you have many happy years together ahead of you guys.

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Postby christos » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:07 pm

Yes, congratulations FatRakoon! Enjoy it as much as you can!

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Postby FatRakoon » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:24 pm

Thanks a lot guys. We have been "Living in sin" for long enough and many people assume we are already married and I often refer to "Her indoors" as "The Wife" ( "The Wife... Dusty pan, the wife" LOL ( Harry Enfield ) )

And well, its been coming a long time... We have both wanted this for a while just not plucked up the courage to actually make it official till Valentines day just gone, however we've been engaged fro a few years now.

Just think... The money its cost us to get married, I could have got myself a high end GFX Card for both the TT and Falcon, as well as pretty much anything I could have wanted really!!! - Finally splash out on CD Writing software perhaps? Register the Shareware software I have meant to for all these years? ( Which I am actually in the process of doing as we speak in fact - the last thing I registered was BoxKite, that how long ago its been, well apart from EasyMinT that is )

Anyway, thanks guys... Im off to get sozzled, and not being much of a drinker anymore, it wont take much.... Thank god.
MSTE @ 16Mhz : 4MB+8MB : Magic & Jinnee
TT030 @ 32Mhz : 10+16MB : Magic & Jinnee
Falcon060 @ 95Mhz : 16+512MB : MiNT & Jinnee
More PCs than PC World has... Probably

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Postby calimero » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:36 pm

thank you FatRakoon for these last two posts!

I wish you all the best!

there will be time for atari and STuff... ;)


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