Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:41 pm

wongck wrote:
leech wrote:There are the random ones that have installers that are meant to only be ran from floppy drives.


The most popular one will probably NVDI 5 installer.
But I do not use the installer.... well may be the very 1st time, after it files been unpacked, I just copy it over to my other Atari and use it right away. :wink:

Jinnee is another one, for those that use it. I found a copy of that in the massive archive out there that was on HD MSA files, and Hatari couldn't read them in natively. I had to create a blank disk image, and use JayMSA to extract them. I know Hatari handles MSA files normally, but thought it odd it wouldn't read these that were 1.3mb in size.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:46 pm

wongck wrote:
leech wrote:Now I need to figure out why my UltraSatan stopped working...
As noted earlier, I actually think now that the filesystem check is trying to run on the Falcon though, it's been sitting there for a day.. Ha!

fsck have been known to trick even the most cleverest of the Mint users :wink:
It probably a combination of different configuration that created the problem.
I hope someone will take my simple suggestion for it.

Yeah, for sure I could have sworn last time I had fired up the ol' bird, I had a broken fsck. If I hit Control-C it will continue, but as of this morning it has been close to two days with the hard drive light blinking and sitting on saying E is mounting unchecked, running e2fsck is recommended. I have tried in the past to figure out how to umount and fsck while in Mint, but no such luck.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:14 pm

leech wrote:Jinnee is another one, for those that use it. I found a copy of that in the massive archive out there that was on HD MSA files, and Hatari couldn't read them in natively. I had to create a blank disk image, and use JayMSA to extract them. I know Hatari handles MSA files normally, but thought it odd it wouldn't read these that were 1.3mb in size.


OMG 8O I have Jinnee on my HDD and I do not even remember it was from an installer. I just copies it to my backup disk and back.

Sorry I have never used Hatari ever before so no comment on it reading floppies.
I tried mostly using Aranym couple of times, excited about the USB on it recently but unfortunately USB was not working well so I had put it aside. Even Aranym I have not used it's floppy function.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:19 pm

leech wrote:but as of this morning it has been close to two days with the hard drive light blinking and sitting on saying E is mounting unchecked, running e2fsck is recommended. I have tried in the past to figure out how to umount and fsck while in Mint, but no such luck.

LOL I would be surprised if you managed to do... unmount and fsck is a Unix OS thing.
Mint is not Unix, so probably not needed to unmount to do fsck....
Don't forget that Mint is not Unix really, Unix-like yes. You're trying too hard.... just let your Atari side flow and you will see it.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:44 pm

wongck wrote:
leech wrote:but as of this morning it has been close to two days with the hard drive light blinking and sitting on saying E is mounting unchecked, running e2fsck is recommended. I have tried in the past to figure out how to umount and fsck while in Mint, but no such luck.

LOL I would be surprised if you managed to do... unmount and fsck is a Unix OS thing.
Mint is not Unix, so probably not needed to unmount to do fsck....
Don't forget that Mint is not Unix really, Unix-like yes. You're trying too hard.... just let your Atari side flow and you will see it.

Ha, yes, I have seriously been so steeped in Unix land that I forget that occasionally. And Mint certainly has Unix-like functionality, and even mintlib to build unix-y things.
I am actually a Linux administrator professionally, so my go to on the Falcon is to load up bash to trouble shoot things. This is where an 80Mhz 060 us truly much mire usable than a 16mhz 030!

Edit: I do actually have two partitions that are formatted ext2, so fscking them is valid.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby joska » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:57 pm

christos wrote:Anyway something that you can use to find and install software with just a few clicks.


I have done quite a lot of work on something like this, and abandoned it. Even something as "simple" as you describe gets tricky when you start to run into special cases. Doable for sure, but the amount of work required to create the packages (descriptions, screenshots, categorize, compatibility flags, testing on various hardware...) can not be overestimated. It's a huge job.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby christos » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:14 pm

joska wrote:
christos wrote:Anyway something that you can use to find and install software with just a few clicks.


I have done quite a lot of work on something like this, and abandoned it. Even something as "simple" as you describe gets tricky when you start to run into special cases. Doable for sure, but the amount of work required to create the packages (descriptions, screenshots, categorize, compatibility flags, testing on various hardware...) can not be overestimated. It's a huge job.


Yeah, the idea would be something like the arch user repository where users could upload the software. It can only happen with distributed work. Populating the database is of course the hardest part of the job and if one person takes it up then it will end at about the number 100.

It could be a simple web interface. Something like getdeb.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:55 pm

joska wrote:
christos wrote:Anyway something that you can use to find and install software with just a few clicks.


I have done quite a lot of work on something like this, and abandoned it. Even something as "simple" as you describe gets tricky when you start to run into special cases. Doable for sure, but the amount of work required to create the packages (descriptions, screenshots, categorize, compatibility flags, testing on various hardware...) can not be overestimated. It's a huge job.


Hmm, so for a while there my method would be to FTP files, extract and use. If we were to create a package format that you could associate with a simple scripting language to install software through a basic enough html viewer. We could maybe have a decent enough distribution method.

But you're right about the screenshots and database. We would want to work with one of the pages already out there like Atarimania.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby joska » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:07 pm

We're talking about GEM applications here. There really is no "installation". You copy/unpack it to you harddrive and run it. There are exceptions - software may come with their own installer, often with encrypted files and a serial number. No "simple scripting language" can work around this, a person must either crack the installer or install the software and create a ready-to-use archive.
So basically there is no need to have any sort of installer on the Atari, except for the user who copies/unpacks the software to the harddisk. What would be nice is a single web/ftp-site with all software nicely sorted and cataloged, where the user can filter on hardware/OS-criteria matching the system [s]he wants to run the software on. This is also where 95% of the effort must be spent.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:09 pm

joska wrote:We're talking about GEM applications here. There really is no "installation". You copy/unpack it to you harddrive and run it. There are exceptions - software may come with their own installer, often with encrypted files and a serial number. No "simple scripting language" can work around this, a person must either crack the installer or install the software and create a ready-to-use archive.
So basically there is no need to have any sort of installer on the Atari, except for the user who copies/unpacks the software to the harddisk. What would be nice is a single web/ftp-site with all software nicely sorted and cataloged, where the user can filter on hardware/OS-criteria matching the system [s]he wants to run the software on. This is also where 95% of the effort must be spent.

This is what I meant. So I click on a link that is ataripkg://atarisoftware.org/qed-503.pkg in a browser, it downloads and unzips in a folder that is defined in a header (for example C:APPS\$pkgname)

It sort of solves the problem I always end up with in Atari land. No organization of folders. Then again my Linux system home directory always looks like a mess too, and we have the wonderful folders split up there.

Not sure if we could make something work in a similar fashion for any serial number based software unless someone wanted to basically install it, then zip up the installed version. Mind you that is if it is okay to distribute by the authors.

This would definitely be a community effort. Like has been stated, some of us have had the same setup for years and when we acquire a new computer, we just copy it over. Problem I am running into is not having all the hardware available to make that easy (I think when I first setup my Falcon I may have set it up with byte swapping, so Linux won't read it I connect the IDE SSD through USB, so currently I have to copy files over the network. Maybe I should do a full backup and fix that...)
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby wongck » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:22 am

leech wrote:
I am actually a Linux administrator professionally, so my go to on the Falcon is to load up bash to trouble shoot things. This is where an 80Mhz 060 us truly much mire usable than a 16mhz 030!

Ok then I don't blame you. You just need to step back and see it from the Mint way of doing things.... .
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby wongck » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:28 am

leech wrote:It sort of solves the problem I always end up with in Atari land. No organization of folders. Then again my Linux system home directory always looks like a mess too, and we have the wonderful folders split up there.


I too had that issue when I 1st got my HDD.... the Syquest 44MB and had lots of stuff on the C: and D: root.
But since then I organised stuff into folders like programs, utilities, fonts, tools, internet, docs, new etc.... sure the names overlap ( utilities and tools) but it is how the human organised it. I have a folder called new which is a mess of anything "I found recently" is copied into; more like unsorted. Yeap, it's really depends on how disciplined you are.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:35 am

wongck wrote:
leech wrote:It sort of solves the problem I always end up with in Atari land. No organization of folders. Then again my Linux system home directory always looks like a mess too, and we have the wonderful folders split up there.


I too had that issue when I 1st got my HDD.... the Syquest 44MB and had lots of stuff on the C: and D: root.
But since then I organised stuff into folders like programs, utilities, fonts, tools, internet, docs, new etc.... sure the names overlap ( utilities and tools) but it is how the human organised it. I have a folder called new which is a mess of anything "I found recently" is copied into; more like unsorted. Yeap, it's really depends on how disciplined you are.

Yeah, totally. I occasionally attempt to make a not-mess of things, and had started doing that on my Falcon, and my desktop system. Kind of even started moving around all the silly amount of git repos on my work laptop so they're not strewn around $HOME.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby wongck » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:41 am

leech wrote:Problem I am running into is not having all the hardware available to make that easy (I think when I first setup my Falcon I may have set it up with byte swapping, so Linux won't read it I connect the IDE SSD through USB, so currently I have to copy files over the network. Maybe I should do a full backup and fix that...)


Ha! Typical IT support in a business... copy stuff over the network.
Even with my 2MB speed LAN on my CT63/CTPCI I would not do it.

You may be just missing an adapter or two only, for good old HDD-HDD mass copying.
On Falcon, get a 3-way IDE so you can connect 2 HDD and copy away.
On TT & Falcon, you can share a SCSI external HDD like what I do.
If you do not have an external SCSI HDD sharing, no problem, just take the TT SCSI harddisk and attach to your Falcon.
You will need micro SCSI-2 (i think that's what they are called) to 50pin adapters for that.
All these I use Kobold which does sector-sector copy for GEMDOS partition; so it is fast!!
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:59 am

Nice, yeah I was using the UltraSatan on all the other systems to do that, but of course the Falcon dropped ACSI support. Noticed after trying moving the TT aside for the Falcon that they have different SCSI connections too, so now need to dig through the box of scsi cables I ordered. Still need to hook up the new MIDI recorders I got as well. The UltraSatan randomly stopped working has put a hamper on that...
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby wongck » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:13 am

Not sure if the SD card from USD can be used directly on a cheapo SD-IDE adapter that you can get from China for less then US$5 including shipping.
If it's possible, then just connect SD-IDE you your Falcon.... just another method to skin something. :coffe:
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby joska » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:44 pm

leech wrote:I think when I first setup my Falcon I may have set it up with byte swapping, so Linux won't read it I connect the IDE SSD through USB


You can always mount the drive in Aranym and/or Hatari.

wongck wrote:Not sure if the SD card from USD can be used directly on a cheapo SD-IDE adapter that you can get from China for less then US$5 including shipping.


This will work just fine.

leech wrote:This is what I meant. So I click on a link that is ataripkg://atarisoftware.org/qed-503.pkg in a browser, it downloads and unzips in a folder that is defined in a header (for example C:APPS\$pkgname)


Yes, this is not very difficult. Be warned though - the simplicity of this will fool less experienced users, since this does not care about dependencies at all. I can assure you that this is the first thing users will ask about.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:26 pm

Are there many dependencies in Atari land? Seems most are just on NVDI/GDOS.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby joska » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:32 pm

leech wrote:Are there many dependencies in Atari land? Seems most are just on NVDI/GDOS.


Compatible with MiNT or not? *Needs* MiNT or not? Compatible with XaAES? Compatible with N.AES? Compatible with Geneva? Works only with specific TOS-versions? Needs GDOS? Needs GDOS with vector fonts? Does not work with a GDOS installed? Minimum screen resolution? Works only in ST-High? Needs colour monitor? Works with 030? 040? 060? Firebee? Etc... These things - and more - needs to be checked and tested for each software package. And it complicates things a lot once you have an installer, as users seems to expect wonders from such things :)
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby wongck » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:07 am

joska wrote:And it complicates things a lot once you have an installer, as users seems to expect wonders from such things :)


Totally agree with Joska that dependency are very difficult to tackle.
Yeap and installer just lobotomised the users. Even to some of our top programmers in the company I worked in. One DLL was of wrong version and that completely make them threw their hands in the air.... it was very very funny to watch how that story unfolded but that's OT.
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Re: Amikit style blob/OS for Atari?

Postby leech » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:35 am

joska wrote:
leech wrote:Are there many dependencies in Atari land? Seems most are just on NVDI/GDOS.


Compatible with MiNT or not? *Needs* MiNT or not? Compatible with XaAES? Compatible with N.AES? Compatible with Geneva? Works only with specific TOS-versions? Needs GDOS? Needs GDOS with vector fonts? Does not work with a GDOS installed? Minimum screen resolution? Works only in ST-High? Needs colour monitor? Works with 030? 040? 060? Firebee? Etc... These things - and more - needs to be checked and tested for each software package. And it complicates things a lot once you have an installer, as users seems to expect wonders from such things :)

I think you missed that some require RGB output on the Falcon, right? :lol:

Yeah, the conflicts/compatibility would be the real kicker. That's why I ended up with xboot and like 8 different configurations when I was setting up my Falcon. With SV, without SV, etc.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)


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