Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:29 pm

Frank B wrote:
1st1 wrote:[
To my understanding this means: Forget Line-A. It's old ST-style, untidy programming. Use VDI calls. With Apollo core we want NEW style ATARI. No Line-A. Do you understand?


No. I think you misunderstand. Think about this. Think of an ST app running in an ST mode on the TT that uses Line A and not the VDI.
What happens if the line a interface isn't there? The app stops working properly in ST modes. Compatibility suffers. I'd also be amazed if TOS 1.x to 2.x would work without the linea interface. BTW the Line A is actually more flexible than the VDI in some ways!


Throw away that old app. Use new app. TT owner do not run their machine in ST graphics mode. They use TT high or even graphics card. There is no Line-A in these modes.

Line-A does not support graphics card. That means it's stupid incompatible. It's like driving a Ferrari with wooden tyres taken from horse carriage.

ATARI themselves tells it very clear in TT release notes: DON'T USE (f****ing) LINE-A.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:30 pm

There is no Pentium chip in any ATARI computer. ATARI did even not had Pentium CPU in their PC line.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:36 pm

1st1 wrote:There is no Pentium chip in any ATARI computer. ATARI did even not had Pentium CPU in their PC line.


The point is it's not competitive with 20 year old PC chip! It's NOT modern!
Here's my suggestion for a fast and cheap accelerator. Take an off the shelf ARM SOC and interface it with the ST. Run the UAE ARM JIT on it.
It would scream along. It would probably run like a 2.x ghz 060.

BTW how does the vampire compare to native coldfire code? I'd have thought the coldfire would be faster!
Last edited by Frank B on Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:40 pm

1st1 wrote:ATARI themselves tells it very clear in TT release notes: DON'T USE (f****ing) LINE-A.


Aha! Adding swearing to a post sure helps make your point?

I have a TT. It runs ST apps great in ST compatible modes. If the vampire doesn't support the LINEA exception (not API), then you won't be able to use any native ST mode AT ALL. The OS won't work!
Last edited by Frank B on Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby christos » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:41 pm

1st1 wrote:To my understanding this means: Forget Line-A. It's old ST-style, untidy programming. Use VDI calls. With Apollo core we want NEW style ATARI. No Line-A. Do you understand?


So a modern replacement for Signum? (I don't know if it is using line-a, I know it's not default GEM app). There are applications that are indispensable if you are going to work with them. If you want to use productivity software on a fast Atari, the reason for Vampire's existence, then you really need to make sure that the most important applications work.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:43 pm

christos wrote:
1st1 wrote:To my understanding this means: Forget Line-A. It's old ST-style, untidy programming. Use VDI calls. With Apollo core we want NEW style ATARI. No Line-A. Do you understand?


So a modern replacement for Signum? (I don't know if it is using line-a, I know it's not default GEM app). There are applications that are indispensable if you are going to work with them. If you want to use productivity software on a fast Atari, the reason for Vampire's existence, then you really need to make sure that the most important applications work.


I'm more concerned about it not working at all on TOS 1.x - TOS 2.x
An OS with no graphics output isn't going to be useful!

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ggn » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:51 pm

1st1 wrote:Do you understand?


Yes dear, we understand. You're entirely clueless. But instead of trying to convince you with words, here's a couple of illustrations for you:

vampire_success_story.png


plz-stop-post.jpg
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby mfro » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:14 pm

ggn wrote:here's a couple of illustrations for you


:cheers:

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby christos » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:24 pm

ggn wrote:
1st1 wrote:Do you understand?


Yes dear, we understand. You're entirely clueless. But instead of trying to convince you with words, here's a couple of illustrations for you:



:cheers:
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:26 pm

Frank B wrote:
1st1 wrote:ATARI themselves tells it very clear in TT release notes: DON'T USE (f****ing) LINE-A.


Aha! Adding swearing to a post sure helps make your point?

I have a TT. It runs ST apps great in ST compatible modes. If the vampire doesn't support the LINEA exception (not API), then you won't be able to use any native ST mode AT ALL. The OS won't work!


It's not told that Apollo does not support Line A. They tell, that Apollo runs in exception when running on an undefinded opcode. Apollo does not use A... opcodes for new instructions, check out. That means: Line A should work.

But ATARI tells: Don't use Line A.

Is that so difficult to understand?
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:29 pm

christos wrote:
1st1 wrote:To my understanding this means: Forget Line-A. It's old ST-style, untidy programming. Use VDI calls. With Apollo core we want NEW style ATARI. No Line-A. Do you understand?


So a modern replacement for Signum? (I don't know if it is using line-a, I know it's not default GEM app). There are applications that are indispensable if you are going to work with them. If you want to use productivity software on a fast Atari, the reason for Vampire's existence, then you really need to make sure that the most important applications work.


Signum also does not run on Firebee. Anyhow, Firebee owners are allmost happy.

By the way, there is Signum III. That works fine on SM-194/TTM-194. That means, it does not use Line A.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:29 pm

Frank B wrote:
christos wrote:
1st1 wrote:To my understanding this means: Forget Line-A. It's old ST-style, untidy programming. Use VDI calls. With Apollo core we want NEW style ATARI. No Line-A. Do you understand?


So a modern replacement for Signum? (I don't know if it is using line-a, I know it's not default GEM app). There are applications that are indispensable if you are going to work with them. If you want to use productivity software on a fast Atari, the reason for Vampire's existence, then you really need to make sure that the most important applications work.


I'm more concerned about it not working at all on TOS 1.x - TOS 2.x
An OS with no graphics output isn't going to be useful!


SOrry, I am very concerned that TOS 1.0x even runs on TT or Falcon... who cares?

And I just booted MS-DOS 3.3 from floppy disk on my Core i7 based PC and I am shocked that I can not use my USB color-printer/scanner device with it.
Last edited by 1st1 on Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:31 pm

1st1 wrote:
Frank B wrote:
1st1 wrote:ATARI themselves tells it very clear in TT release notes: DON'T USE (f****ing) LINE-A.


Aha! Adding swearing to a post sure helps make your point?

I have a TT. It runs ST apps great in ST compatible modes. If the vampire doesn't support the LINEA exception (not API), then you won't be able to use any native ST mode AT ALL. The OS won't work!


It's not told that Apollo does not support Line A. They tell, that Apollo runs in exception when running on an undefinded opcode. Apollo does not use A... opcodes for new instructions, check out. That means: Line A should work.

But ATARI tells: Don't use Line A.

Is that so difficult to understand?


TOS 1.x to TOS 2.x *require* it to draw any graphics on the screen. It's a VDI primitive. The VDI won't work on an ST without it.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:35 pm

It looks like the guys making an ATARI compatible machine based on Apollo are using EmuTOS. Who cares on TOS 1.x / 2.0x for a highend ATARI machine?

TOS 2.0x does not require Line-A. It's only there for compatibility to old apps.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ericgus » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:37 pm

ggn wrote:
plz-stop-post.jpg



Ok this made me laugh.. I have to steal this pic..

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:42 pm

1st1 wrote:SOrry, I am very concerned that TOS 1.0x even runs on TT or Falcon... who cares?

And I just booted MS-DOS 3.3 from floppy disk on my Core i7 based PC and I am shocked that I can not use my USB color-printer/scanner device with it.


I'm confused. This card is meant as a plug in for the *Atari ST(e)* right? Are you saying you don't care if it breaks the OS in ROM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It isn't meant to work on a Falcon or a TT right? Are the Apollo team saying we need to use EMU TOS now? Are they willing to write us a new TOS?

Ugh. I'd rather use TOS 2.0 over EmuTOS any day.
Are you actually a spokesman for the team? I think you need to take a step back. You aren't working well as an advocate of the project.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:54 pm

1st1 wrote:It looks like the guys making an ATARI compatible machine based on Apollo are using EmuTOS. Who cares on TOS 1.x / 2.0x for a highend ATARI machine?

TOS 2.0x does not require Line-A. It's only there for compatibility to old apps.


Really? Are you 100% certain about that? I bet it's still a primitive called from the VDI. I bet it's also used for console output.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ijor » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:57 pm

ggn wrote:Yes dear, we understand. You're entirely clueless. But instead of trying to convince you with words, here's a couple of illustrations for you:
plz-stop-post.jpg


LOL. You made me laugh.

But I guess you already know, don't you? You won't EVER convince him. Personally, I don't care. You gave all of us some fun, thank you. LOL

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ggn » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:26 pm

ijor wrote:
ggn wrote:Yes dear, we understand. You're entirely clueless. But instead of trying to convince you with words, here's a couple of illustrations for you:
plz-stop-post.jpg


LOL. You made me laugh.

But I guess you already know, don't you? You won't EVER convince him. Personally, I don't care. You gave all of us some fun, thank you. LOL


Who, me? Convince? Him? By what authority? It's not like I spent 3 months fiddling with the TOS sources, recompiling them using gcc, debugging them and optimising and fixing bugs in the process (including tracking down a bug for 1 whole month) and finding line-a scattered all over the VDI now, did I? I'd rather let somebody (mis)quoting random sources that haven't been relevant since the time where Jive Bunny and the Mastermixers had their last hit single convince people. Not me.

But anyway, if he keeps posting I'm sure the Atari community will tie "Vampire" with "That human vuvuzela who wouldn't stop talking" - his call :).
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby joska » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:51 pm

Frank B wrote:Are you saying you don't care if it breaks the OS in ROM!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I would be very surprised if LineA is not supported in the Apollo core since both TOS and MacOS use this for OS bindings. EmuTOS even use LineA internally, and EmuTOS is proven to work on the Vampire. So no need to worry.

Image

TOS 1.x will work. I see no reason why it shouldn't. It's not a good choice on such a machine though since it means that you can't use the fast-RAM, but it will work.
TOS 2.x will also work, and EmuTOS too. MiNT will work, and maybe even MagiC.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby EvilFranky » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:12 pm

Any further development on that modified TOS? Sorry a bit off topic.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby CiH » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:26 pm

Any further development on that modified TOS? Sorry a bit off topic.


Actually, good question, seconded. 8)
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ericgus » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:47 pm

... goes and googles line-A due to failing old memory ...

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby jvas » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:39 am

1st1 wrote:It looks like the guys making an ATARI compatible machine based on Apollo are using EmuTOS. Who cares on TOS 1.x / 2.0x for a highend ATARI machine?

TOS 2.0x does not require Line-A. It's only there for compatibility to old apps.


Please listen to other's opinion. It would be not very good to have a really fast atari computer, and not having a software working on it. Maybe the current atari software library is not much independent from hw as the amiga one. Atari community is not as big as amiga. If there is no resource to rewrite those programs, in the end, you will have a computer and the only sw that works on it is emutos (I am ironic here by intent)

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:22 am

Frank B wrote:
1st1 wrote:SOrry, I am very concerned that TOS 1.0x even runs on TT or Falcon... who cares?

And I just booted MS-DOS 3.3 from floppy disk on my Core i7 based PC and I am shocked that I can not use my USB color-printer/scanner device with it.


I'm confused. This card is meant as a plug in for the *Atari ST(e)* right? Are you saying you don't care if it breaks the OS in ROM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It isn't meant to work on a Falcon or a TT right? Are the Apollo team saying we need to use EMU TOS now? Are they willing to write us a new TOS?

Ugh. I'd rather use TOS 2.0 over EmuTOS any day.
Are you actually a spokesman for the team? I think you need to take a step back. You aren't working well as an advocate of the project.


I agree with you, also I would prefer TOS 2.06, as it looks more atari like. (Look of EMU-TOS is like x86-PC GEM) But TOS 2.06 is not supporting 68030 or higher CPU, it can not manage caches and PMMU (Apollo has no PMMU yet, but guys are working on Apollo team to convince them to integrate it in their MCU). But with an enhanced ATARI running at 80-90++ MHz (one day mybe at 1 Ghz, if the ASIC comes), having 512MB of RAM (or even more), having full HD graphics you would load NVDI, NAES and Terradesk from your TOS, and even a MiNT kernel, right? So it is not really relevant if there is TOS 2.06 or EMU-TOS as the startup ROM, right?
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1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3


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