Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:53 pm

mfro, you just confirm (more detailed) what I wrote above. And your conclusion is correct, too much workl to redesign FireBee. Nobody will do this. Let's wait vor Xmas and Easter on one day. :)
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby lp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:57 pm

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Last edited by lp on Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:35 pm

Araynm and UAE + JIT. At least 20x faster and free. I'll stick with that and a real 68k.
The vampire really needs to be faster and more compatible than both solutions. 150 equivalent mhz 060 speed (no fpu!) vs 3200 mhz 060 speed with full 68882 FPU. No comparison. Aros native on a crappy old PC will run rings around it. UAE running hosted on Aros will run rings around it too.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby soviet9922 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:32 am

Frank B wrote:Araynm and UAE + JIT. At least 20x faster and free. I'll stick with that and a real 68k.
The vampire really needs to be faster and more compatible than both solutions. 150 equivalent mhz 060 speed (no fpu!) vs 3200 mhz 060 speed with full 68882 FPU. No comparison. Aros native on a crappy old PC will run rings around it. UAE running hosted on Aros will run rings around it too.


My cellphone will run rings around it, i don´t think this is the point.....

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby joska » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:51 am

Frank B wrote:Araynm and UAE + JIT. At least 20x faster and free.


...and completely without any interest for me :) I could not care less about emulators, I really don't find any pleasure in using them. I much rather have real hardware with 5% of the power of a PC running ARAnyM, and I'm willing to pay for it.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby ex68k » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:30 pm

joska wrote:
Frank B wrote:Araynm and UAE + JIT. At least 20x faster and free.

...and completely without any interest for me :) I could not care less about emulators, I really don't find any pleasure in using them. I much rather have real hardware with 5% of the power of a PC running ARAnyM, and I'm willing to pay for it.


I for myself don't like them either on a PC, but this thread is not really about PC emulators, right?
;-)

Seriously, there are many different reasons to have one or another, or all of them
(It is cool to have the original, not everybody can afford the nice one, my wife doesn't like the original in the living room, etc.)

But what I care about in emulators: If you programmed one (don't care FPGA or PC), you get a much better understanding of the machines
you are trying to emulate. You can read schematics all day and "think" you know it, but doing it yourself and get it working, it the real test ;-)

Have fun!

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:41 am

As far as i know, Apollo team go closed source because they want their investor give the money for ASIC version. But why they don't want to use Kickstarter? They've said they need around 250K which can be made through Kickstarter.
ASIC won't allow you to change the core once it's in silicon. It means, core should be very robust. And it will require many years of development. They start to bind them self with some vapor far future possibilities when many thing will be changed and there is no guarantee their current investor will be with them. They may bankrupt, lose interest, whatever...
So, their excuse for closed source doesn't look real and true. I even don't talk about real commercial success on such very tiny market as retro computers where Amiga and Atari keeping the leadership of interest but still the only part of this tiny market.

Kickstarter will not only help to rise the fund, but also will show what you can expect from the market before you start to manufacture the goods. So, if you can't rise enough fund on Kickstarter, then it's better don't bother with commercial project and keep it lowprofile with handmade or low-volume batch. If you can rise enough fund then go on, you won't loose anything.

So, their explanation of secret investor looks like bullshit for me... Just logical thinking - nothing more.

P.S.: about side commercial projects for automation and other: it won't succeed because none of new project use 68k. There are many more faster, cheaper, more energy efficient solutions than 30y.o. 68k. ARM will beat 68K in every aspect. None of ASIC 68K will be closer and reliable than ARM. Simply forget about this competition.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:53 am

Correct targeting of your product is also big part of success.
What is audience of Amiga and Atari computers today? People of 40+. And more time pass, older audience will be. Only small fraction of younger ppl are interesting in Amiga/Atari. And they are not bound by nostalgia when you could see these computers as new with a lot of expectation and cool new games. No. They will rather use emulators if they ever want to play old games.

So, these Apollo standalone device will have very niche market. It won't be successful in commercial point of view, if you don't count 1000-2000pcs as success ;)

I didn't say i'm not interested in such device ;) I just want to be real without fantasies of success. And as a developer i prefer to have it open source and add my own improvements. Actually i've spent much more time to develop my MiST cores than used them to play games ;)

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:03 am

An ASIC for 250K is not possible. They need at least 1 Million. Ever seen a kickstarter project of that size? For a product which finally maybe costs 10 Dollar? How many contributers would be required? 100.000! Is the worldwide retro computing szene as big? But what if an investor wants for example to bring an Amiga/Atari/Sega Saturn/Neo Geo/... gaming console to the supermarkets? Like the C64 joystick?
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:23 am

1st1 wrote:An ASIC for 250K is not possible. They need at least 1 Million. Ever seen a kickstarter project of that size? For a product which finally maybe costs 10 Dollar? How many contributers would be required? 100.000! Is the worldwide retro computing szene as big? But what if an investor wants for example to bring an Amiga/Atari/Sega Saturn/Neo Geo/... gaming console to the supermarkets? Like the C64 joystick?

I lost my interest for this thread about week ago. But this made me to write here again.
Another self contradicting idea. Gaming console of those oldies with some pseudo, not enough 68K compatible, 1 GHz CPU ???? I don't know what to do, to laugh or to cry. Folks, you are just completely lost.
Btw. it is done already, but you don't see well in MIST :mrgreen:
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:55 am

AtariZoll, one personal request, from me to you please: As soon as an Apollo based Turbo card or standalone machine to support ATARI ST series compatblility is available. And that on the base that whoever made it. Please promise me to not buy it. To not even want/like/... it. Ok? MiST is good enough for you.

Ps: They just implement a throttle mode in Apoollo (they call it turtle mode).
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:23 am

AtariZoll wrote:An ASIC for 250K is not possible.

They wrote this price (on their forum IIRC), not me.

1st1 wrote:They need at least 1 Million. ... For a product which finally maybe costs 10 Dollar?

And they will fail right away because they won't sell so many devices.
Wake me up when Apollo team will sell thing for something like 50 dollar ;) They would rather shoot them self than sell at cheap price.
You can read their posts where they told about ASIC. They didn't write it will be cheap. They wrote it will be fast (read: not cheap).

1st1 wrote:Like the C64 joystick?

C64 joystick disappear very quickly. I don't know why. It looked like many C64 fans were eager to buy it and modify to full C64, but it was mysteriously vanished. I don't know why.. Though, i don't believe i will see Amiga in such form anytime soon. And not from Apollo team.
Actually, modern technology allows to put whole Amiga into single small chip much quickly. If you have original CBM docs, you can put whole circuit directly into single chip and save a lot of time of development.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:25 am

1st1 wrote:An ASIC for 250K is not possible. They need at least 1 Million. Ever seen a kickstarter project of that size? For a product which finally maybe costs 10 Dollar? How many contributers would be required? 100.000! Is the worldwide retro computing szene as big? But what if an investor wants for example to bring an Amiga/Atari/Sega Saturn/Neo Geo/... gaming console to the supermarkets? Like the C64 joystick?


Do you know how much that would cost? I have a rough idea. I was one of the two developers that worked on the Atari 10 in 1 TV games. I'd be amazed if something like that came out of Amiga land! I don't think that's possible. The cooperation isn't there.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:32 am

1st1 wrote:AtariZoll, one personal request, from me to you please: As soon as an Apollo based Turbo card or standalone machine to support ATARI ST series compatblility is available. And that on the base that whoever made it. Please promise me to not buy it. To not even want/like/... it. Ok? MiST is good enough for you.

Ps: They just implement a throttle mode in Apoollo (they call it turtle mode).


I have a better idea. Let's stop talking about it completely till it stops being vapour. Post again when it appears for the ST.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:38 am

Gunnar told me about the million on phone. Just a few days ago. You know, 10 years ago I used to work in a similar industry, and the million for an ASIC is very plausible.

Why you all declare something dead before it is finally released? I thought, Amiga communitiy is strange, but ATAR community is even more strange. I now understand some peoples. Have you remembered that it is very quiet here from some peoples since at least about a half year or so? It's because you don't trust these makers if they would tell you what they do. There is something to go arround and you don't remember it.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:40 am

Frank B wrote:I have a better idea. Let's stop talking about it completely till it stops being vapour. Post again when it appears for the ST.


That is maybe the best idea. Because it's a waste of time to talk to you and give you hope on something amazing to come.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Frank B » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:04 pm

1st1 wrote:
Frank B wrote:I have a better idea. Let's stop talking about it completely till it stops being vapour. Post again when it appears for the ST.


That is maybe the best idea. Because it's a waste of time to talk to you and give you hope on something amazing to come.


Good stuff. Stop posting about it then. Come back to us when the Natami is finished.. oh wait....
Last edited by Frank B on Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:08 pm

So this thread could be closed with a big smile from me. Stay tuned. :)
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby lp » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:33 pm

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:38 pm

lp, you are absolutely right, discuss it dead, and that's why those peoples already working on it don't go to public yet.
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1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:19 pm

OK, this is my last post here, and probably last one about Vampire until something concrete arrives - I mean some working Atari accelerator, or working standalone what will run some popular Atari ST SW.
What is problem here ? We are accused for not believing in project, for not participating, and like. That self is bad approach if want to advertise something. Even if would be true. I would like to see 1GHz 68000 CPU, really. But I'm aware over 1 decade that something like that is just not CPU for 21-st Century. Will not repeat what already wrote here about reasons.
Worse, every new thing I see, read, hear from Apollo team makes me more skeptic. That Majsta presentation was full with false claims about today computer industry. Maybe he is right about prices in Amiga waters, but here I know only one case that people complain - Firebee. And that's irrelevant in fact, until there is choice in fairly priced products. In other words - that can not be excuse why someone rising prices, pricing high.
I could continue, but really no sense for long blah.
Just last told: "Please promise me to not buy it. To not even want/like/... it. Ok? MiST is good enough for you." - That shows well whole attitude. They think so blindly that people will be fascinated with it in ahead. With what ? All what is told is not that spectacular. It is still slower than Firebee when using not AMMX. Plus, I clearly said that I prefer compatibility.
So Apollo team: I'm sorry if I look as someone not liking new retro developments, or that just not like your Vampire. It is good thing already - for some people. Probably there is not so much of them. Your mistake is in too high expectations, in bad presentation of it, and last but not least in misjudging some simple things - like that market needs some superfast 68000 console clone. No, market needs something what will reliably run tens of thousands of existing SW. Do superfast 68000 accelerator, Amiga, Atari clone. Do compatible console. That will make 2 good products.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby lp » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:47 pm

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:18 pm

Your comment proves why "they" don't tell anything yet.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby lp » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:49 pm

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:10 pm

Don't think that "they" publish anything yet, see your stupid doubts, "they" have "null bock" on that kind of discussion. And that's not Apollo Team. Yes, Apollo team also does something, but they are not alone.
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1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3


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