FPGA 68000

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teh3pwner
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby teh3pwner » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:08 pm

nice design unseenmenance.

are you using photoshop to make these?????????
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby unseenmenace » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:02 pm

teh3pwner wrote:nice design unseenmenance.

Thanks :)

teh3pwner wrote:are you using photoshop to make these?????????

I am using Paint Shop Pro 7 but technique-wise its done in the way I always drew with Degas Elite on my ST; i.e. in 16 colours and mostly pixel by pixel in zoom mode and a lot of copy and paste :)
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby unseenmenace » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:09 pm

It occurred to me that (in the event an FPGA ST is ever produced in numbers) additional ports such as serial, parallel and DMA could be catered for by having space on the PCB to mount pin headers for extra sockets to plug into (like PC motherboards often have for a serial port). That way the same PCB could be used in more than one different casing depending what sockets you wanted:-
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby alexh » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:03 pm

Now we have USB ports AND a LAN? :roll:

I'm sorry but the design is (unfortunately) impractical. Just count up how many I/O you now have. You are entering the $300/chip FPGA territory.

FYI the manufacturer's of the commercial MiniMig FPGA PCB have agreed to loan me a board (in exchange for some dev work).

I'll have a go at porting Suska as soon as it arrives (they said the next batck will be late April :? )

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby unseenmenace » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:23 pm

I only added the USB as I had a gap to fill up but since there is already an add-on for the ST with USB I thought it might be a nice idea. I'm no electronics guru but couldn't cheap I.C's be used for the likes of LAN or USB rather than adding more to the FPGA? I was only sharing my thoughts of what it might look like anyway 8)
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby alexh » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:40 pm

unseenmenace wrote:I'm no electronics guru but couldn't cheap I.C's be used for the likes of LAN or USB rather than adding more to the FPGA?

Yes. In fact you HAVE to use some sort of external IC's for USB and LAN as they require special Phy's (special analog bits) not in most FPGA. But FPGA capacity is not the problem, the problem is I/O pins. Even with external chips you have to add the extra I/O pins to control them. (Address, Data, Chip select, output enable etc. etc.) To get more I/O you have to get a bigger, better and more expensive FPGA

unseenmenace wrote:I was only sharing my thoughts of what it might look like anyway 8)

I do like your artwork. It's great. If it were technically possible I'd want that case ;-)

I'd still like a case like that moulded for the MiniMig PCB's I/O ;-)

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby unseenmenace » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:27 pm

alexh wrote:Yes. In fact you HAVE to use some sort of external IC's for USB and LAN as they require special Phy's (special analog bits) not in most FPGA. But FPGA capacity is not the problem, the problem is I/O pins. Even with external chips you have to add the extra I/O pins to control them. (Address, Data, Chip select, output enable etc. etc.) To get more I/O you have to get a bigger, better and more expensive FPGA

Ahh, I see, that makes sense, no LAN or USB then :) . If a cartridge port was included you would at least have the option of plugging in a NetUSBee though :D
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby MikeJ » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:00 pm

Hello,
It's been a long time coming but the FpgaArcade dev board is finally coming together. All parts are on the board and routing of the PCB is going well.
The idea is to produce a board I can use to continue developing the arcade games as well as the Amiga/ST.

It's about 10 cm by 14 cm and contains a Spartan3e FPGA, analogue+DVI video output and quality audio out. The memory is DRAM so lots is cheap.
It has a similar PIC and SD card loader to Minimig (it will run a variant of Minimig) as well as my ST ASIC conversion project. The system should allow two images on the SD card to be mounted as drives A/B.

It has a 68K processor (same as Minimig) but this is only to let me verify the 68K soft core, it should not be necessary to fit it.

You can wire up additional connectors to the expansion connector, so if you want an external floppy/hard drive/ lcd screen etc it is all possible.

I'll put up some pictures as soon as possible.

(I am in contact with both Dennis and Wolfang, b.t.w)

(The long term aim is produce a small portable version)
Cheers,
Mike.

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby alexh » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:42 pm

MikeJ wrote:Hello,
It has a 68K processor (same as Minimig) but this is only to let me verify the 68K soft core, it should not be necessary to fit it.

Are you familiar with the recently discovered incompatibility with the 3.3v 68SEC000 CPU used on MiniMig?

The problem is that "move.w sr,EA" is privileged on 68EC000 and 68SEC000. This breaks any old application/game/demo using "move sr,EA" (in user mode).

I dunno how much it would affect the Atari ST (Any uber good coder know??)

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby Cyprian » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:03 am

alexh wrote:Are you familiar with the recently discovered incompatibility with the 3.3v 68SEC000 CPU used on MiniMig?

The problem is that "move.w sr,EA" is privileged on 68EC000 and 68SEC000. This breaks any old application/game/demo using "move sr,EA" (in user mode).

I dunno how much it would affect the Atari ST (Any uber good coder know??)


As far as I remember the same issue exists in 68010 and games/demos are not affected by this issue
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby fpgaarcade » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:06 pm

"The problem is that "move.w sr,EA" is privileged on 68EC000 and 68SEC000. This breaks any old application/game/demo using "move sr,EA" (in user mode)."

no, but I am not surprised there are differences. My intention is to use the external core to validate the timing and behavior of the soft core, similar to I did with the T80 and T65 cpus.
You create a test harness around the two cpus and run them in lock step then you can trig a logic analyser when they part company and work out what happened. The 68K core looks pretty solid so hopefully there will be very little to do...

Does anybody have a test suite for the 68K - perhaps for a software emulator? I am looking for some software which executes every instruction.
The other approach is to use the FPGA to generate opcodes, perhaps from a simple counter and watch what the processors do.

I need to get out more clearly .....
/Mike

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby rpandion » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:40 am

Does anybody have a test suite for the 68K - perhaps for a software emulator? I am looking for some software which executes every instruction.


You can have a look here:

http://gwenole.beauchesne.info/en/blog/ ... _testsuite
http://gwenole.beauchesne.info/en/projects/68ktester

Hope this helps.

Richard

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby fpgaarcade » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:12 pm

Fantastics, thanks.

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby alexh » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:58 am

ACube very kindly loaned me a MiniMig FPGA board.

I've promised to do them some work on their Amiga image first, but as soon as I have some free time (or get bored) I hope to look at porting over Suska.

stimpy has already demonstrated several cool video's of it working (to some degree) and hopefully with his help I can get it ported and MiniMig will become a viable ST FPGA devkit.

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby unseenmenace » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:29 pm

Exciting stuff :)
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby Gordini » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:27 pm

Hi All

Interesting thread.

I agree that the Minimig is an ideal platform for FPGA implementation of the ST series machines. I'd like to throw in a couple of things in to the discussion ...

I think that coding up the 68k in VHDL or Verilog is a waste of (a lot of) time. You can still buy these parts easily enough. This was one of the great decisions made in the Minimig project.

The biggest problem with Minimig, as an ST, is its lack of a MIDI interface. For me, Cubase is the 'killer app' of the ST and Falcon machines.

Those things said. Why bother with an FPGA ST at all ??? I've come back to the Atari scene, after a 15 year abscence, by using the Steem emulator, and it is staggeringly accurate and stable. Great work guys !!!

What we DON'T have is a Falcon emulator, this for me would be a very interesting prospect for FPGA implementation. My proposal would be ...

Chipset:

REAL MC68030 at 16/32MHz
Xilinx Spartan 3A implementation of ...
Atari Custom Chips
Motorola DSP56001 at 32/64MHz (you can't buy these anymore but the FPGA has plenty of multipliers!)
DSP SRAM (in block RAMS)
Crystal Audio CODEC (you can't buy these anymore, but you can create v.good sigma delta converters in an FPGA)
128 Mbit SDRAM (for the full 14Mbyte experience)
SD Card Floppy and HDD emulation


Interfaces:

PS/2 kbd + mouse
9 pin joystick (x2)
9 pin RS-232
18-bit VGA (with scan line doubler for 15kHz modes)
6-bit TFT panel interface (for direct connection to VGA or SVGA panel)
MIDI In, OUT/THRU
Stereo analogue audio I/O

I would propose to leave out the MC68882, Printer, Analog joytsick, DSP, DMA and FDD external interfaces. Anyone got a strong opinion on that ??? What I really admire about the Minimig board is its single minded simplicity. That is why it actually exists and works ! I would propose to use the same approach, keep it simple, small, and cheap.

Does anyone have an interest in the above idea ?

I am an experienced electronics engineer, in the field of digital audio, and could take on the 56k and CODEC designs, I'd need someone else to tackle the Atari chips and maybe SDRAM controller though. Oh, and I only do VHDL, not Verilog :wink:

Cheers
G

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby thothy » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:28 am

Gordini wrote:I think that coding up the 68k in VHDL or Verilog is a waste of (a lot of) time. You can still buy these parts easily enough. This was one of the great decisions made in the Minimig project.

The biggest problem with Minimig, as an ST, is its lack of a MIDI interface. For me, Cubase is the 'killer app' of the ST and Falcon machines.

Those things said. Why bother with an FPGA ST at all ???


It's already done, have a look at: http://shop.inventronik.de/store/1 and http://www.experiment-s.de/en

Gordini wrote:What we DON'T have is a Falcon emulator,


Have a look at http://hatari.berlios.de/scrshots6.html and say that again!

Gordini wrote: this for me would be a very interesting prospect for FPGA implementation. My proposal would be ...


There is already the Atari Coldfire Project ( http://acp.atari.org/ ) which is also planning to us a FPGA for emulating the old hardware chips. I think they are planning to implement a 56k DSP into the FPGA, too.

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby alexh » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:03 am

I'd be curious to know how come no-one has released a suska port to any other FPGA platform considering how open-source it is.

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby Gordini » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:57 pm

thothy wrote:It's already done, have a look at: http://shop.inventronik.de/store/1 and http://www.experiment-s.de/en


Yes I've seen this work. I think the hardware is overly complex and expensive, but great respect to him for the FPGA work.

thothy wrote:Have a look at http://hatari.berlios.de/scrshots6.html and say that again!


This looks like some great work in progress, well done. I thought that there was a lot of development left to do, but it appears that you have come quite far. If you keep up the good work there will be no need for a FPGA Falcon either! I'd really like this project to be completed, so if I can help please let me know. I have 15 years C and 56k experience, plus a fair bit of Falcon know how...

thothy wrote:There is already the Atari Coldfire Project ( http://acp.atari.org/ ) which is also planning to us a FPGA for emulating the old hardware chips. I think they are planning to implement a 56k DSP into the FPGA, too.


I personally don't see the point in the Coldfire idea, it's not object code compatible. We have PCs for NEW software !

Good luck with the project.

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby aRt » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:26 pm

I just bought myself a minimig board as well... a clocked up nice one :-)

it arriving in 20-23 days it says... tho I live in brasil building my new video /music studio, i.e. my office.. ;-)

Im going to be hackin along on that FPGA also... :-) currently writing a new desktop in c, and its internal engine is close to finished. :-)

willing to beta-test etc. whatever... :-)

the aRtari machine will ROX! :D
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby thothy » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:54 pm

Gordini wrote:This looks like some great work in progress, well done. I thought that there was a lot of development left to do, but it appears that you have come quite far. If you keep up the good work there will be no need for a FPGA Falcon either! I'd really like this project to be completed, so if I can help please let me know. I have 15 years C and 56k experience, plus a fair bit of Falcon know how...


Do you know by any chance the details of the Falcon sound matrix and its interface to the DSP? That's one of the most important blind spots currently...

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby joska » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:34 am

Gordini wrote:I personally don't see the point in the Coldfire idea, it's not object code compatible. We have PCs for NEW software !


What a depressing point of view. Not very hackerish! :D Personally I don't see the point in replicating the STE in FPGA. We have original hardware for OLD software. Fleamarkets and eBay is full of ST's, for €50 you can buy a 1040STFM which runs just about every old game better than a almost-perfect FPGA clone.
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby wongck » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:45 pm

joska wrote:
Gordini wrote:I personally don't see the point in the Coldfire idea, it's not object code compatible. We have PCs for NEW software !


What a depressing point of view. Not very hackerish! :D Personally I don't see the point in replicating the STE in FPGA. We have original hardware for OLD software. Fleamarkets and eBay is full of ST's, for €50 you can buy a 1014STFM which runs just about every old game better than a almost-perfect FPGA clone.

Well, coldfire / FPGA / emulator / original from ebay.... pick one which ever is fun for you... most importantly just enjoy the platform while you can! :D
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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby Gordini » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:03 pm

Well, I didn't want to depress anyone, so I'll keep my Coldfire opinions to myself from now on :)
WongCk, you're quite right, we should all enjoy the Atari anyway we like.

Thothy, I have programmed the DSP soundsystem in the Falcon in the past and made use of the connection matrix. It's basically a serial router, but I guess you know this already, have you seen the Falcon developer guide at http://dev-docs.atariforge.org/ this has a useful chapter on the router chip.

I assume you want to model the chip exactly. I can probably help, we'll need to disassemble the XBIOS to see what going on in Devconnect() etc. I think we're off topic for this thread, where should we go from here ?

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Re: FPGA 68000

Postby aRt » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:04 pm

i think both the coldfire project is good and the FPGA ideas. I will personally buy a coldfire, its not that hard to use easyrider or a debugger to patch an app for coldfire

program start - end --- somewhere in there u have a problem.. an instruction that dont fit in... insert a jmp - make some space after the end of the program, alter the header of the .prg file .. so that the size is correct for system mem alloc etc... then in this new free space add sum instruction to emulate the missing one... then jump back to the preceeding instruction after the initial jump.... on pc this is normal while hackin and patchin os x ;) int...

though, an even better idea is the FPGA project imho - there are a lot of 68k geniouses that dont wanna learn everything over again, and its gonna run pretty fast when we have good blitting operations - accelerated graphics and in the end probably even pcie gfx cards.
This lets the talents go on.. in their favourite world of coding - app using... Now, personally I am looking forward to the Glue emulation.. Im even gonna support it in my projects... this is a cool idea!

old hardware dont cut it when we wanna be cutting edge unless there are extreme addon boards, which ofcourse is a way to go too, kudos to that too.. but them motherboards keep breakin, and that heart be akin!
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