Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

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AtariZoll
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:18 pm

joska wrote:This is a silly discussion. The fact that MiNT does not replace everything in TOS does not mean it's not a "proper" OS. Does that mean that TOS+NVDI is not a "proper" OS? EmuTOS+MiNT? EmuTOS was written specifically to boot MiNT without TOS. What about those odd operating systems "Windows" and "Linux"? Neither of these satisfies Thorsten's or AtariZoll's definitions of a "real" OS since neither is able to bootstrap a computer...
Neither is MagiC either, as soon as a CPU > 68030 is involved. MagiC can *not* boot from ROM in a computer with a 040/060 (or 080 for that matter) unless some hacker sits down and patches MagiC itself. It's not sufficient to path TOS to boot MagiC, you must patch MagiC itself too. This is the sort of things that FreeMiNT tries to avoid. Just like Windows and Linux is able to boot on a huge variety of hardware thanks to 3rd party BIOS and hardware drivers. ..

Indeed silly, when you don't listen what people really talking about. I did not say "not proper' . I said that is not full OS, and more important, that is not OS made at once, but as some kind of extension on some earlier made OS. Just like old WIndows for DOS.
Example with booting is really very bad. Boot from some drive is trivial process. You forgetting how computer works, and that in case of PC we have lot of diverse HW, chipset solutions, unlike in Atari (or Amiga) computers. And that Linux, Windows are not placed in ROM - that self is enough reason for such OS, so OS on disk can not boot self :mrgreen: It is possible only with ROM. And that ROM does first necessary HW initializations, otherwise proper boot is not possible. And of course, in my 'definition' - what never happened - I talked only what I consider as not really good naming of something. So, I did not say that full OS must boot self. Remember first TOS 1.00 on floppy ? - that's same as Linux, Windows considering boot.
And of course talking that MagiC, SW done more than 20 years ago in last version is not capable to boot on computer with 68040 ++ is pure ... imagine here some nice English word :D Come on ... We need to patch not only OS-es for new CPUs but big part of existing SW too . That is old issue, and really has nothing with this "what to call OS" discussion. Although, fits in this thread, indeed :D
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Atarieterno » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:01 am

1st1 wrote:
Atarieterno wrote:
1st1 wrote:Yes, a lot of smoke. And because of so much smoke nobody sees the perspective. ANd at the end when something Atari compatible based on Apollo is available you knew it and it was your idea and you are so brilliant.


I will not wear a medal, dear mate, I'm just a humble musician who still uses Atari.
Do not get angry, we're just talking.
Best regards. :cheers:


Yes, you are just a musician, I knwo you also from the german forum, you are from Sevilla. So if you don't care about faster TOS machine, why then talking about it and recommend others to think like you?

I also don't talk about the fun and danger of Tauromaquia as I am not interested in it at all. Poor bulls!


I do not understand your commentary, what bothers you: that I am from Seville? that I like Atari and I also read the German forum? that this forum is from Atari and not from bullfighting?
Yes, I like the accelerated Atari, but after a year talking about Vampire here only Van Helsing appears.

Greetings from Seville (SPAIN).
ST/fm/e, STacy, Mega ST/e, TT, Falcon, C-Lab MKX... and more music tools.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:56 am

I don't bother about your locality, I don't bother that you also read the german form, again, you are very welcome there, you are a nice guy and smart, I only want to show you that we also know from there and more friendly, I only bother that you talk about something and give your opinion where you don't have any interest in. Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten. (with your very good knowledge of german language you should be able to find out what is the meanig of this german expression) This is the main problem of this thread, not that Apollo team does not advance much on Atari side, but that the project is talked dead by so many guys here which would really profit from it, this is the smoke and fog I mean.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Atarieterno » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:32 pm

1st1 wrote:I don't bother about your locality, I don't bother that you also read the german form, again, you are very welcome there, you are a nice guy and smart, I only want to show you that we also know from there and more friendly, I only bother that you talk about something and give your opinion where you don't have any interest in. Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten. (with your very good knowledge of german language you should be able to find out what is the meanig of this german expression) This is the main problem of this thread, not that Apollo team does not advance much on Atari side, but that the project is talked dead by so many guys here which would really profit from it, this is the smoke and fog I mean.


Dear mate 1st1;
The phrase "Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten" is wonderful, it is accurate in Germany, Spain and the whole world. In Spain we say "Zapatero a tus zapatos" (in English it would be approximately: "The cobbler should stick to his last").
But it is unfair to apply it to me, because I do ask to speak of "shoes" in a forum of "shoes".
However, it is only my opinion and I told you in the previous message that I do like the reinforcements for our classic machines, if there is a Vampire for Atari that works I will buy it if the price is reasonable, if they put a price of 600 € not I'll buy it (I can afford that expense, of course, but I'm not going to feed speculators).
The questions that must be clarified and not ask for absolute faith or not to give an opinion, are:
- Can the device be adapted for Atari? at the hardware level.
- What degree of compatibility does it have? I mean the software. A great speed and huge memory is of no use if Cubase does not work (for example).
- Someone is dedicating himself to this version?
- Do we want to import Amiga's uses and customs and its business to the Atari scene? few direct sales devices appear on sale, then in Amiga stores at a more expensive price (few units) and finally on eBay with a very expensive price.
- The old and classic phrase "Amiga sucks" is grounded? ah ah ah, it's a joke!

Finally you and I want the same, improvements for our machines. The only thing that differentiates us is that you trust and I am like Saint Thomas.
You are a great guy and I ask God that all the problems in the world to discuss are unimportant things, like this one.
I leave the smoke, steam and vapor of a year: honestly, I want you to be right and soon a super-accelerator for Atari appears.
Best regards.
ST/fm/e, STacy, Mega ST/e, TT, Falcon, C-Lab MKX... and more music tools.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby 1st1 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:10 pm

Hello, that reads much better.

Honestly I understand those doubts here, I am also a bit disappointed that Apollo team announce Atari support but does not advance for our beloved machines since more than a year. On the other side they asked for support from the Atari community. The most they earned from us was doubts, critics and so on. Maybe they are frustrated by this reaction???

The only obvious possible thing was the hard work of Vincent R. to get EmuTOS and MiNT on Amiga, with Vampire support (processor, graphics), this is really great and important, but I know, we all want that an ST with Vampire boots TOS & MiNT and works, and not an Amiga. This did not happen yet. But instead following their announcement they "only" advanced the Amiga plattform and they really made large and impressive progress over there and they still have visions what to do for Amiga, like supportin A1200, 3000, 4000, but also this delays since a year. Anyhow since their announcement last year, now they have AMMX, they have hyperthreading, now they have hardware-fpu, they have full hd true color graphics (SAGA), they have original Amiga chipset graphics mode. It's not only a CPU. Only PMMU missing. Anyhow, I still hope that they fullfill their promise to support Atari hardware as well, and then, I promise you, we also will benefit from their Amiga activities. MiNT already would be able to use SAGA graphics in an ST with Vampire. AMMX/Hyperthreading support is something the community could integrate in gcc and gfa compiler already to be ready for day X. And you know how simple basically the ST graphics is, they are able to implement it for compatibility mode, I am sure. MiST & Suska shows, already everything there and implementable into FPGA. What we need to do to advance them is not to critisize them (too much), but we need to motivate them, we need to support them, we need to help them. We also need to motivate our own skilled peoples to help them. This is what mostly did not happen, with some exceptions, during the last year. I miss this.

The 68000 in ST and Amiga is the same chip. Vampire is a replacement for that chip. As their (Apollo team) target is to be able to run any (!) 68K software, inlusive Linux (which needs PMMU, no alternative) as their turbo card fits in 68K socket, I am pretty sure that it's possible to boot an ST with Vampire, maybe still not now but in future. Let us try to motivate them to do it. In Apollo forum are also discussions about to accellerate Mac 68K and NeXT machines. While we shredder each others in pro and contra Vampire, they may do the others? In my opinion this would not be a positive outlook for us.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby kolla » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:21 am

Yes, the 68080 has an MMU, but it is out of reach for the operating system, it is used under the hood to provide a "familiar memory space" for the operating system, among other things.
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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:58 am

There won't be new OS or AAA games for Amiga anymore. Thus, the only point for accelerators is to make existing apps/games work more smooth. Any new features won't be used besides couple demos.
So, its' marketing bubble - nothing more.

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Re: Apollo Team announces developing of Vampire standalone version to run as AMIGA and ATARI ST

Postby Dal » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:48 pm

I think this thread has run its course.

Those who actually want to contribute to such a project will find their own way of working with the Vampire team to make it real.
Those who can't contribute but want the hardware will wait patiently with their cash in their fists.
Those who don't care will just ignore it.

End of. Closing thread.
TT030: 4MB/16MB + Crazy Dots, Mega"SST" 12, MegaSTE, STE: Desktopper case, IDE interface, UltraSatan (8GB + 512Mb) + HXC floppy emulator. Plus some STE's/STFM's


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