Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby SegaSnatcher » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:50 pm

crocky wrote:I suggest you do the research about the LLAPI code's license. Better yet, share the LLAPI source code link. Also quoting the creator of the protocol and using his explanation in place of experimental data is not adding to anything to this thread than advertising his product.


You asked for data and I gave it to you. LLAPI is its own thing that other people can use. I just quoted him because he explained it well.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby SegaSnatcher » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:52 pm

Here's the github Crocky.

https://github.com/Kitrinx/LLAPI

Bootsector is behind LLOAD that uses the LLAPI protocol. LLOAD is 100% Open source.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:00 am

SegaSnatcher wrote:Here's the github Crocky.

https://github.com/Kitrinx/LLAPI


"This is a SystemVerilog module for use with the two-wire Bliss-Box low latency API, primarily for MiSTer."

Thats not LLAPI source code.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:01 am

SegaSnatcher wrote:
crocky wrote:I suggest you do the research about the LLAPI code's license. Better yet, share the LLAPI source code link. Also quoting the creator of the protocol and using his explanation in place of experimental data is not adding to anything to this thread than advertising his product.


You asked for data and I gave it to you. LLAPI is its own thing that other people can use. I just quoted him because he explained it well.



Definition of data:
data
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facts and statistics collected together for reference or analysis.
"there is very little data available"

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby SegaSnatcher » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:07 am

crocky wrote:
SegaSnatcher wrote:Here's the github Crocky.

https://github.com/Kitrinx/LLAPI


"This is a SystemVerilog module for use with the two-wire Bliss-Box low latency API, primarily for MiSTer."

Thats not LLAPI source code.


https://github.com/bootsector/LLOAD/blo ... /README.md

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:10 am

SegaSnatcher wrote:
crocky wrote:
SegaSnatcher wrote:Here's the github Crocky.

https://github.com/Kitrinx/LLAPI


"This is a SystemVerilog module for use with the two-wire Bliss-Box low latency API, primarily for MiSTer."

Thats not LLAPI source code.


https://github.com/bootsector/LLOAD/blo ... /README.md


Thats not LLAPI. Thats an adaptor that uses the LLAPI. So LLOAD is open source, but uses closed source LLAPI. We need an open source alternative to LLAPI, without those ugly HDMI cables and which has been tested to actually have low latency like a lot of other gamepad tests - thats all I am saying.
Last edited by crocky on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:10 am

.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby SegaSnatcher » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:20 am

crocky wrote:
SegaSnatcher wrote:
crocky wrote:
"This is a SystemVerilog module for use with the two-wire Bliss-Box low latency API, primarily for MiSTer."

Thats not LLAPI source code.


https://github.com/bootsector/LLOAD/blo ... /README.md


Thats not LLAPI. Thats an adaptor that uses the LLAPI. So LLOAD is open source, but uses closed source LLAPI. We need an open source alternative to LLAPI, without those ugly HDMI cables and which has been tested to actually have low latency like a lot of other gamepad tests - thats all I am saying.


How is it closed source if anyone can use it? You are confusing the open source LLAPI protocol with the closed source firmware on that to be not named device. Please know the difference. If you wanted to create a new open source device that uses the LLAPI protocal you can without an issue.

Anyways, this is getting beyond the point of this conversation. LLAPI is tied to Vblank/Polling so you'll get less instances of missed frames than USB, this an objective fact. Case Closed, have a nice day.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:26 am

Like I said, show me the source code for LLAPI instead of adaptors / interfaces that uses LLAPI instead of patronising me and confusing everyone with snakeoil stuff and gobbledygook. Case is closed indeed.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby SegaSnatcher » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:34 am

crocky wrote:Like I said, show me the source code for LLAPI instead of adaptors / interfaces that uses LLAPI instead of patronising me and confusing everyone. Case is closed indeed.


I just showed you a project that is 100% open source that uses LLAPI protocol. Anyways, stop trying to change the initial subject of this thread. LLAPI is technically better than USB and will always be, because again its tied to the polling/vblank. For most people the difference might not be that big, but again it depends on what USB controller you are using. So think of USB as basically a gamble and LLAPI as a certain guarantee of extremely low latency.

A quote

"It's just a protocol. Protocols are just procedures. Source code can vary and be implemented in several languages."

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:35 am

I didn't change the topic, I didn't bring up closed source commercial LLAPI that sits like a parasite on MiSTer to sell HDMI cables, thats something you did Mr. Shill.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby Dubon » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:55 am

Without picking a side pro or against:

https://github.com/ulao/Bliss-Box-LLAPI ... 20source.c

Read the license. Llapi is open source.
the hardware is actually open source too, afaik the only firmware running on it is closed.
This topic is ridiculous.
Last edited by Dubon on Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby SegaSnatcher » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:59 am

crocky wrote:I didn't change the topic, I didn't bring up closed source commercial LLAPI that sits like a parasite on MiSTer to sell HDMI cables, thats something you did Mr. Shill.


Why do you keep dismissing LLOAD, probably because it doesn't fit your narrative. LLOAD has nothing to do with those other guys and like I said LLAPI in of itself is not closed source, because if it was then how would LLOAD exist? LLAPI is not some exclusive protocol. I think that is what you keep assuming. Bootsector wrote his own code to communicate with the LLAPI protocol and so its 100% commercial free. Nobody is getting paid, its a DIY project that anyone with the right soldering skills can build.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby Newsdee » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:02 am

This is LLOAD, an open source board that uses LLAPI with DB15 interfaces and avoids using SMD component to make it easy to solder by anybody.

LLOAD.jpg


Schematics and firmware code is here:
https://github.com/bootsector/LLOAD

I fail to see how is this commercial. Sure some people may offer to sell it, but the same is true of MISTer SDRAM boards.
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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby RabidWookie » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:02 am

Are LLOAD and LLAPI interchangeable? As in, would LLOAD enabled cores work on a device built for LLAPI?

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby Newsdee » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:06 am

RabidWookie wrote:Are LLOAD and LLAPI interchangeable? As in, would LLOAD enabled cores work on a device built for LLAPI?


LLAPI is a protocol, a language if you will. Let's call it Controlese.

LLOAD, cores, and other PCBs designed for it speak Controlese to understand each other.
Controlese was designed to be minimum bandwidth so as to allow for very fast communication.
Its implementation is open source (link above) so anybody can build a PCB or cores that use it without restrictions.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby RabidWookie » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:20 am

crocky wrote:
SegaSnatcher wrote:
crocky wrote:
"This is a SystemVerilog module for use with the two-wire Bliss-Box low latency API, primarily for MiSTer."

Thats not LLAPI source code.


https://github.com/bootsector/LLOAD/blo ... /README.md


Thats not LLAPI. Thats an adaptor that uses the LLAPI. So LLOAD is open source, but uses closed source LLAPI. We need an open source alternative to LLAPI, without those ugly HDMI cables and which has been tested to actually have low latency like a lot of other gamepad tests - thats all I am saying.


I like the HDMI cables, they're open source and more elegant than having a board with 10 different connection types on it.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:51 am

Can you use an LLAPI modified cores without using any closed source boards in the chain? If you think I am deliberately avoiding LLOAD because it doesnt fit my narrative - I dont know what LLOAD is, all I know about that is bootsector was banned from the Discord for using the term LLAPI on the channel. I have no narrative except I prefer open source alternatives.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby Dubon » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:54 am

I think youre mistaken about bootsecor beeing banned. Atleast not on mister discord. And yes you can use llapi with bootsectors lload. I have some lload pcbs on order to test it. It should also be noted that lload can also be used as a usb adapter for original controllers, even without llapi.
Last edited by Dubon on Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby crocky » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:59 pm

I shall check out LLOAD, cheers.

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Input Lag Test - Fpga MiSTer with DB9 addon vs. Sega Mega Drive JAP

Postby oskarzer0 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:29 pm

https://youtu.be/JpPqSa0waxQ

In this video I have connected two systems: Fpga MiSTer (below) and Sega Mega Drive (above) to two equal televisions and with a single sega db9 Control Pad. I use the db9-Port addon provided by https://www.antoniovillena.es/store/ (thank you!) That allows me to connect sega db9 controllers to the MiSTer.
The objective of this video is to compare if Mr. Bison, when jumping, is in the same frame/position (you can pause the video recorded at 60fps to see it better) in both systems which would mean that there is no lag and that the input speed is the same in both systems: Fpga vs. Original system

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Re: Could input lag from controllers be eliminated without special new hardware?

Postby Sorgelig » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:37 pm

Congrats to falling down to LLAPI crap.
Didn't i warned before?
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