MiSTer updater script

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby BitsNStuff » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:30 am

Lightwave wrote:
RabidWookie wrote:Will Jotego's cores be added to the official script?


Jotego has mentioned that at some point he will add his cores to the official repository.

Has that been confirmed now? According to his GitHub he may add some of them at some point, possibly, maybe.
github wrote:Although I have
had some cores released through the MiSTer repository or the source code repository;
from now on I will be adding new releases to this repository.

Eventually, the cores may get transferred into the regular MiSTer repository, but
during the development phase I prefer to keep the source code in my own repository.


https://github.com/jotego/jtbin

I'm really not expecting the cores to be made official and see the benefit of Sorgelig and the other developers in the open source community. Was watching a recent YouTube video of one of the games and it contains a dedication to, I am paraphrasing here, "His fiend, Jim Drew" and advertising his website. It doesn't real feel like open source is the goal for all developers, unfortunately.

I would really love to find myself being wrong about this, we'll see.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby Lightwave » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:00 am

BitsNStuff wrote:Has that been confirmed now? According to his GitHub he may add some of them at some point, possibly, maybe.


Not sure if it has been confirmed, but don't forget his first cores (1942, 1943, GnG) have already been added to the main MiSTer repository.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby kitrinx » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:21 am

slingshot wrote:Well, I don't want to sound harsh, and I have maximum respect of the developers working on MiSTer, but I feel somewhat this requirement of "your core cannot be auto-updated unless you transfer your repo to MiSTer-devel" is a kind of blackmailing. Just think about a developer, who creates cores targeting other devices, too. Why should he give the ownership of his repo to MiSTer?
I'm sure it's not about a bad intention, maybe just this case was overlooked. The auto-updating requires only the binary. There are no auto-build facilities. So probably it would be enough to push the RBF and a manual to a common MiSTer-owned repository, mentioning the source repo. Then the auto-update can work from this binary repo.


It's not blackmailing. It's saying "if you want your core to be officially supported by our platform, you need to put it in a place where we can maintain it sanely." In cases where the author doesn't want to do this themselves, we can just fork there when development slows down. When things like SDRAM changes roll around, and other changes that require maintenance of the framework, it's very cumbersome to have code spread out all over creation.

Edit: sorg also allows creators of cores to maintain control of their own repos inside the mister-devel group, btw. They can still push their own changes and things without need sorg to accept PR's there.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby kolla » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:09 am

I don’t get this - why can’t the script maintainer just make a auto-mirroring repo?
-- kolla

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:19 am

Lightwave wrote:Not sure if it has been confirmed, but don't forget his first cores (1942, 1943, GnG) have already been added to the main MiSTer repository.


And that's where I have to ask that how it actually avoids fragmentation?

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:22 am

BitsNStuff wrote:
I'm really not expecting the cores to be made official and see the benefit of Sorgelig and the other developers in the open source community. Was watching a recent YouTube video of one of the games and it contains a dedication to, I am paraphrasing here, "His fiend, Jim Drew" and advertising his website. It doesn't real feel like open source is the goal for all developers, unfortunately.


I don't get this. His cores are open source. You can contribute to them via ordinary GitHub methods. What else would you expect?

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:26 am

kitrinx wrote:"if you want your core to be officially supported by our platform, you need to put it in a place where we can maintain it sanely." In cases where the author doesn't want to do this themselves, we can just fork there when development slows down.

Could it mean that fork, do the maintenance and send back a PR to the original repo? Or is it insane?
Of course if the original author abandoned his work, there's no point to send back the changes.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby Newsdee » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:53 am

slingshot wrote:Of course if the original author abandoned his work, there's no point to send back the changes.

If it's part of one central repo, then that is not a problem. Why fork when everybody can work in one place?

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby BitsNStuff » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:13 pm

slingshot wrote:
BitsNStuff wrote:
I'm really not expecting the cores to be made official and see the benefit of Sorgelig and the other developers in the open source community. Was watching a recent YouTube video of one of the games and it contains a dedication to, I am paraphrasing here, "His fiend, Jim Drew" and advertising his website. It doesn't real feel like open source is the goal for all developers, unfortunately.


I don't get this. His cores are open source. You can contribute to them via ordinary GitHub methods. What else would you expect?

I would expect them to be truly open source and submitted to an open source directory with the other MiSTer cores. Many of the more prominent/useful devs don't have access to contribute to the work that's already been done.
I assure you that if his work was truly source then it would comparable to all the other open source cores in the MiSTer project. At the moment that's not happening because a choice has been made to go in a different direction to the open source nature of the project.
The fact that at least one of these cores now seemingly advertise a MiSTer hardware producer who Sorgelig has prevented from advertising on here due to selling closed source MiSTer hardware should speak volumes where things are moving away from the heart of this project. We have a software developer who states in their Git that only some of the cores may be integrated into the main project at some point is advertising for a hardware developer who has been prevented from selling on here due to locking down hardware which Sorgelig believes is untrue to the MiSTer ethos should really speak volumes to people.
Particularly as the cores we talk of have been built on the shoulders of many other developers on here.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:30 pm

BitsNStuff wrote:I assure you that if his work was truly source then it would comparable to all the other open source cores in the MiSTer project. At the moment that's not happening because a choice has been made to go in a different direction to the open source nature of the project.

Well, I don't agree. Is it not truly open source, because it's under his own Github account, and not under MiSTer-devel? Why do you think you don't have access? Are you forbidden to send Pull Requests? Or push the Fork button?
I feel this starts to turn from "we welcome you" to "you must work as we say". Also those cores are supporting not just MiSTer, but other boards, too. Then the other projects should also require to put his work under their hosting?

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:53 pm

The one who create the repo in MiSTer-devel has ownership of this repo. Standard and simple structure of sources allow easy update and maintain. If you speak about Jotego's core, but his repo with all sources mixed in one is complete mess.. I've tried to compile the sources - no matter what i've tried and which Quartus version i've used - it's always failed. Sources are full of linux specifics and hardly nmaintainable.. No problem for a single person, but definitely not community friendly.
Some people may think i just want this way without a reason, but they simply don't know what is maintaining a big project with large amount of sources.

As for those who want piggyback on opensource by selling closed source HW cannot be a part of MiSTer. They don't share any improvements but just sucking from this project. More over that seller has a lot of false ads without any proves. Simply dirty tricks.
Some users acts like children "i don't care what's happening, i just want this candy." Such users don't care about future of MiSTer, they just want the candy right here right now.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:58 pm

slingshot wrote:Well, I don't agree. Is it not truly open source, because it's under his own Github account, and not under MiSTer-devel? Why do you think you don't have access? Are you forbidden to send Pull Requests? Or push the Fork button?
I feel this starts to turn from "we welcome you" to "you must work as we say". Also those cores are supporting not just MiSTer, but other boards, too. Then the other projects should also require to put his work under their hosting?

Anyone is free to develop how he wants. Jotego doing his own way, isn't?
But if you don't want to cooperate with main project, why you ask the main project cooperate with you?

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:00 pm

Yeah, those repos are more complex. But it comes from the fact that not just a single board is supported. Also there are simulation testbenches, which are not really common on MiSTer. Stripping those and putting them into one place creates only a "torso" without too much value.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:05 pm

Sorgelig wrote:Anyone is free to develop how he wants. Jotego doing his own way, isn't?
But if you don't want to cooperate with main project, why you ask the main project cooperate with you?


I don't ask this. I just reacted on auto-update, and said technically it's not required to host the repo on MiSTer-devel to auto-update the binary. Just imagine google would require to host your source code at their premises to enter the Google Play. Of course there could be requirements from the project side, and it's the project's choice which are they. But just from the pure technical point of view hosting on MiSTer-devel shouldn't be required.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:24 pm

slingshot wrote:I don't ask this. I just reacted on auto-update, and said technically it's not required to host the repo on MiSTer-devel to auto-update the binary. Just imagine google would require to host your source code at their premises to enter the Google Play. Of course there could be requirements from the project side, and it's the project's choice which are they. But just from the pure technical point of view hosting on MiSTer-devel shouldn't be required.

Technically nothing is required. But it's part of cooperation i've talked above.
Also updater expects some standard repo structure and naming to work. All in all, community means some rules. Anarchy won't work well.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby high5 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:59 pm

slingshot wrote:I feel this starts to turn from "we welcome you" to "you must work as we say".
Totally agree. One can show/debate the benefits of working together in a true community but one also has to accept different decisions.

I also would love to see Jotego's core in the main mister repo, following standard naming convention, working with update script and without all the JT-Logos - but I can accept the route he is taking, no need to "sense" and "feel" bad about this.
It is his decision to jump on the fame train and letting go the benefits of the community to help with his cores (which imo is priceless when looking at the Neogeo core). It's not ideal but OK for me as long as it is OSS.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby BitsNStuff » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:50 pm

Sorgelig wrote:If you speak about Jotego's core, but his repo with all sources mixed in one is complete mess.. I've tried to compile the sources - no matter what i've tried and which Quartus version i've used - it's always failed. Sources are full of linux specifics and hardly nmaintainable.. No problem for a single person, but definitely not community friendly.
Some people may think i just want this way without a reason, but they simply don't know what is maintaining a big project with large amount of sources.

Thanks for clarifying that Sorgelig. It's not like you to struggle with something like that but I know another dev mentioned that it wasn't an easy thing to do.

It's probably a good idea for people to understand this and measure their expectations of how these cores will be released then. If any of them do end up being merged with the main MiSTer project then it'll be a real bonus but it's probably best to accept that it's unlikely and just be grateful with the work put into them and be grateful that we still have access to them. It may not be ideal but it's still pretty damn good!!
Sorgelig wrote:Anyone is free to develop how he wants. Jotego doing his own way, isn't?
But if you don't want to cooperate with main project, why you ask the main project cooperate with you?

That's a nice simple way of putting it, it does make perfect sense.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby hernan43 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:00 pm

To me it sounds like Sorg is just asking for a little standardization within the core project. I think that is a reasonable ask.

It is fairly common within Free/OSS projects to have some level of standardization for 3rd party stuff, I don't see this as any different.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby djmartins » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:18 am

I'd hate to see MiSTer get more fragmented.
There are a lot of great cores for it that work pretty good and updates are frequent.
Seems to me it is working better than many other Open Source projects this large out there
thanks to the management of the man in charge.
Look at all the stuff we've seen over the past 12 months!

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby RabidWookie » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:19 am

djmartins wrote:I'd hate to see MiSTer get more fragmented.
There are a lot of great cores for it that work pretty good and updates are frequent.
Seems to me it is working better than many other Open Source projects this large out there
thanks to the management of the man in charge.
Look at all the stuff we've seen over the past 12 months!


Agreed. Projects thrive under standardized rules and terms for collaboration. While I'm thankful for all the work everyone does on cores, I wish everyone would come together so this project continues to thrive. When key contributors start going off on their own and things start fragmenting projects tend to collapse.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:05 am

Sorgelig wrote:Technically nothing is required. But it's part of cooperation i've talked above.
Also updater expects some standard repo structure and naming to work. All in all, community means some rules. Anarchy won't work well.


Cooperation is good. Of course, there must be some structure to make an auto-update work.
My point is just that repo structure is not ideal for some projects or development workflows (these are technical issues, not political ones). And some guys here (not you) almost saying "obey or die".

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:00 pm

slingshot wrote:
Sorgelig wrote:Technically nothing is required. But it's part of cooperation i've talked above.
Also updater expects some standard repo structure and naming to work. All in all, community means some rules. Anarchy won't work well.


Cooperation is good. Of course, there must be some structure to make an auto-update work.
My point is just that repo structure is not ideal for some projects or development workflows (these are technical issues, not political ones). And some guys here (not you) almost saying "obey or die".


Generally speaking, projects supporting many boards is not a good way to develop in terms of specific board. It adds too much complexity and cluttered hard to read sources. Adds a lot of board specific parameters or even conditional compilations... At the end only one developer will understand the sources. It's ok if someone want to support several boards and maintain it. Usually targeting to several boards means keeping the core at lowest board capabilities. As i've told, anyone is free to develop as he wants.. MiST has spread non-centralised repositories, so people manually find the cores and update them. And it seems fine for them. Pretty much as i've told - keeping the project at lowest board capability. If ok for MiST, then should be ok for MiSTer.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby slingshot » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:19 pm

Sorgelig wrote:
Generally speaking, projects supporting many boards is not a good way to develop in terms of specific board. It adds too much complexity and cluttered hard to read sources. Adds a lot of board specific parameters or even conditional compilations... At the end only one developer will understand the sources. It's ok if someone want to support several boards and maintain it. Usually targeting to several boards means keeping the core at lowest board capabilities. As i've told, anyone is free to develop as he wants.. MiST has spread non-centralised repositories, so people manually find the cores and update them. And it seems fine for them. Pretty much as i've told - keeping the project at lowest board capability. If ok for MiST, then should be ok for MiSTer.


Well, it depends. Cooperation can be good also.

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Re: MiSTer updater script

Postby djmartins » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:54 pm

slingshot wrote:Well, it depends. Cooperation can be good also.


Depends on what?
Who are you referring to when you keep saying "cooperation is good"?


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