DE-10 Super Expansion board

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JimDrew
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DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:30 am

I am working on finalizing a board for the DE-10 that gives you the basic features of the MiSTer I/O board, SDRAM board, and RTC board - all in a single plug-in board. The board is the full size of the DE-10, meaning that all 4 corners have holes for mounting screws. I have added headers for I2C, SPI, and a few other of the Arduino connection points so that they could be used in the future.

I have a question about the TOSlink support that the MiSTer I/O board has. Does anyone actually use the optical audio output? I know it's not popular here in the U.S.

If you have any suggestions or requests, please post. I have quotes for assembled boards, but I do have an opportunity to make any changes right now before they go to production. Thanks!
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby Newsdee » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:37 am

It would be cool to have RCA and Component connectors, similar to how MiSTICA does it with RCA and SVideo. They sell 6 plug connectors for that + stereo audio.

It probably doesnt fit the board, but thought it's worth mentioning as a possible extra:
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby thgill » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:46 am

Will it keep the high speed serial I/O connector that the 5.5 board has?

I know of at least one project in the works that will use it (the LL Cool Joy).

Optical audio for me is of little use.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby ijor » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:57 am

JimDrew wrote:I am working on finalizing a board for the DE-10 that gives you the basic features of the MiSTer I/O board, SDRAM board, and RTC board - all in a single plug-in board.


A unified single board is great!

As mentioned in other thread, I had the idea to add a DB-9 connector for old school joysticks, may be even two behind a mux. I know some people will like it, but Sorgelig probably won't.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:06 pm

ijor wrote:I know some people will like it, but Sorgelig probably won't.

Why I won't like? I just don't care - it's a big difference from "won't".
DB9 connected to FPGA won't provide the same flexibility as USB where you can define the buttons as you like, have more than 2 buttons, and even map buttons to keyboard to play games originally not supporting the joysticks.
What i don't like is when some one piggybacking on open source project providing proprietary addons or cores without sources.
I/O board 5.5 provides I/O signals for expansions, so if some core would like to use some additional devices like DB9 joysticks - it's possible.

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby ijor » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:27 pm

Sorgelig wrote:DB9 connected to FPGA won't provide the same flexibility as USB ...


Absolutely. Nobody said it would replace USB controllers. It just would be an alternative.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:00 pm

The educational market is starting to use some of the MiSTer add-on boards when teaching FPGA courses, but it is a bit of a nightmare for students to be plugging/un-plugging boards all of the time. So, I have created a single board with all of the features that are needed, retaining much of the MiSTer core compatibility.

I don't think there is enough room to keep the board the same size as the DE-10 (so it fits within a small case) and have a DB9 connector. However, there are plenty of .1" spaced cables to DB9 connector options available. I think the USB option makes more sense because there are USB to Jamma adapters where you can use any type of arcade cabinet joystick/button/trackball, as well as traditional USB based PC joysticks.

I don't have the USB-C connector that the v5.5 board has. I made an expansion header with all of those pins. I also made several other headers that have some of the arduino pins.

I2C and SPI were important pins that needed to be there.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby mattsoft » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:20 pm

IMHO, the optical audio is not that important and I wouldn't miss it. Looking forward to this board!

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:30 am

The DE-10 Super Expansion board is a full size (all four screw holes are available) board. It's a 4 layer PCB with an incredible amount of decoupling to make it very quiet (creating RF boards is part of my day job). It has break out connectors for the I2C, SPI, and I2S ports. It also has USB/high speed serial break out connectors. The SDRAM and RTC are on this board. There is a small circuit board (or cable, I have not decided the best way to go yet) that will bridge the main board with the LTC connector on the DE-10. The VGA connector, 3.5mm audio jack (with TOSlink like the v5.5 MiSTer I/O board has), SD card socket, push buttons, LEDs, and external connections of LEDs/push buttons are available. This board uses a 30mm fan (instead of the 40mm fan that the MiSTer I/O board uses).

The board will come with the heat sink and fan. This board basically takes the place of the MiSTer I/O board, SDRAM board, and RTC board, giving you a single unit with expansion capabilities (needed for the classroom, maybe not so much for the MiSTer community).
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby warham » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:29 am

JimDrew wrote:The DE-10 Super Expansion board is a full size (all four screw holes are available) board. It's a 4 layer PCB with an incredible amount of decoupling to make it very quiet (creating RF boards is part of my day job). It has break out connectors for the I2C, SPI, and I2S ports. It also has USB/high speed serial break out connectors. The SDRAM and RTC are on this board. There is a small circuit board (or cable, I have not decided the best way to go yet) that will bridge the main board with the LTC connector on the DE-10. The VGA connector, 3.5mm audio jack (with TOSlink like the v5.5 MiSTer I/O board has), SD card socket, push buttons, LEDs, and external connections of LEDs/push buttons are available. This board uses a 30mm fan (instead of the 40mm fan that the MiSTer I/O board uses).

The board will come with the heat sink and fan. This board basically takes the place of the MiSTer I/O board, SDRAM board, and RTC board, giving you a single unit with expansion capabilities (needed for the classroom, maybe not so much for the MiSTer community).



less words more boards :p take our $$ Jim. What's the ETA on this thing?

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:27 pm

I will have the 2nd prototype boards next week (I changed the pin spacing for a few connectors). Once i have checked this version I should have assembled boards within 3 weeks, depending on the availability of components. This was created primarily for the education market, but I am trying to determine the level of interest in the MisTer community so I can calculate what the retail price will be. The full package will include the Super Expansion Board (includes compatibility for MiSTer SDRAM, RTC, I/O board, plus more features), interconnection board, fan, and heat sink - assembled and tested. Normally the I/O board is $55, SDRAM board is $25, RTC board is $15, Fan is $5, and heatsink is $3 - which is $103. I am guessing the retail price for my full package will be $79.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby warham » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:30 am

JimDrew wrote:I will have the 2nd prototype boards next week .



will this sit on top of the nano or below? I am thinking about case design.
Last edited by warham on Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby witchmaster » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:10 am

Seems to become a nice board! Will it be open source?

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:57 pm

Yes, this sits on top of the DE-10. I will be making a 3D printable case design and releasing the .STL files so you can print your own.

No, this won't be open-source. Besides having a large and expensive 4 layer board ($142 for 5 boards vs. $31 for 10 of the v5.5 MiSTer I/O boards), it uses 0603 and 0402 SMT parts, which almost nobody has the ability to hand solder. These are being assembled by my production house here in the U.S.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby jpxdude » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:24 pm

Hi @JimDrew

Very interested in this! Would you be able to ship out a unit to the UK? Let me know any costing details when you can please. Best of luck!

-J

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:01 am

I ship all of my products world-wide. Shipping cost depends on the method of shipping you choose during checkout. Air mail to the UK is about $14, prices go up from there. All packages have tracking info provided.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby flain » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:40 am

If you decide to create a wait list put me down for one :)

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:48 pm

Here is a picture of the prototype DE-10 Super Expansion Board that I am producing. I have a few issues with the supplier getting parts because of the new tariffs and such, but I do expect these before Christmas.

SEB.jpg

The board has 32MB of SDRAM, VGA output with a nearly perfect linear ramp and sync on green capability, audio output w/TOS-Link, battery backed-up real time clock w/RAM and EEPROM available, micro SD card slot, 3 push buttons, 3 LEDs, external push button input, external LED outputs with both 3.3v and 5v available, and headers for the SPI port, I2C port w/removable pull-up jumper, I2S, VGA power, serial port, USB capable port, and fan power port. The fan is small, 30mm.

The Super Expansion Board will come with a heat sink and fan.

The I2C port pull-up resistors can be disabled so that other I2C devices that have pull-up resistors built-in (like OLED screens) can be used. The DE-10's complete LTC port is passed through so you have access to the I2C and SPI capabilities.

I will be providing a mechanical drawing shortly for those that want to design a case.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby jrlodden » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:39 pm

Very nice.. If you have a waiting list please add me.

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby SmokeMonster » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:06 am

This looks interesting. If more SDRAM is needed for something like Neo Geo in the future, would the entire board need to be replaced though?

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby Newsdee » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:32 pm

Of course. But the price of another board would still be cheaper than a DE10 Nano.

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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:35 am

Technically, I could use 64MB RAM chips with this board, but the problem (according to Sorgelig) is the speed drops dramatically because you have refresh another 32MB of memory. I don't know if this is something that will be done in the future, but it is easy enough to offer two different versions if necessary.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby ijor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:06 am

JimDrew wrote:Technically, I could use 64MB RAM chips with this board, but the problem (according to Sorgelig) is the speed drops dramatically because you have refresh another 32MB of memory.


I don't understand why it would be slower to refresh. Both 32MB and 64MB chips require 8K refresh cycles per 64ms. Refresh is performed per row, not per bit or byte, and both chips have the same number of rows (8K).
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby JimDrew » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:24 am

Yeah, I am not sure. I seem to recall a discussion about this last year. Maybe I mistaken.

The 64MB chip is 4 times the price, but if the Amiga core could support it I would be happy to have two options available. The Atari ST emulation could take advantage of this (hint, hint), as could a few other cores.
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Re: DE-10 Super Expansion board

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:13 am

Cores using page burst (like Minimig, X68000) cannot work with 64MB chips without changing the code.
Probably, in the future there will be some tweak to work with 64MB chip on such cores. And by the way, that's why having separate SDRAM board is better - you can change it in the future if there will be some new and important feature.

JimDrew wrote:Technically, I could use 64MB RAM chips with this board, but the problem (according to Sorgelig) is the speed drops dramatically because you have refresh another 32MB of memory.

i never said this. I only said that 64MB chips on MiSTer has less max frequency - probably due to higher power consumption. In datasheets 64MB chips usually have higher currents in all modes.


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