SDRAM board

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sofakng
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Re: SDRAM board

Postby sofakng » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:04 pm

I'm sorry but I'm still a bit confused with the SDRAM.

What's the largest memory module for the single-chip (SDRAM XS v2.2) board?

Do you need to use the SDRAM XSD (v2.4) for 128 MB?

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby THaase » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:09 am

XS 1.1 / 2.2 ->
-----------------
For 32MB configuration:
Alliance Memory AS4C16M16SA-6TCN or Winbond W9825G6KH-6

For 64MB configuration:
Alliance Memory AS4C32M16SB-6TIN

XSD 2.4 ->
------------
For 128MB configuration:
2x Alliance Memory AS4C32M16SB-6TIN

sofakng wrote:Do you need to use the SDRAM XSD (v2.4) for 128 MB?

YES, as 64MB chip is the largest available in TSSOP54

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby THaase » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:25 am

SDRAM XS-D v2.4 Caps.png


I would like to share my tested configurations so far!

Config 1:
-----------------
2x Alliance Memory AS4C32M16SB-6TIN
C5,C8,C9,C12 -> 10uF
C1,C3,C6,C10 -> 1uF
C2,C4,C7,C11 -> 0.1uF

-> Stable @ 140MHz , some sporadic errors @ 150MHz (about 20 in 30 minutes)
BUT: new memtest shows up some errors @120MHz (rest of test frequencies is fine)

Config 2:
-----------------
2x Alliance Memory AS4C32M16SB-6TIN
C1 - C12 -> 1uF

-> Stable @ 130MHz
BUT: new memtest shows up some errors @120MHz (rest of test frequencies is fine)

Config 3:
-----------------
2x Alliance Memory AS4C32M16SB-7TCN
C5,C8,C9,C12 -> 10uF
C1,C3,C6,C10 -> 1uF
C2,C4,C7,C11 -> 0.1uF

-> Stable @ 130MHz
NO Errors @ 120MHz

@Sorgelig: Can you reproduce errors @120MHz at your side with -6TIN? Maybe phase related problem?

Except NeoGeo I've not tested any cores so far (MetalSlug 5 works fine).

Update:
Config 4:
-----------------
2x Alliance Memory AS4C32M16SB-6TIN
C5,C8,C9,C12 -> 10uF
C1,C3,C6,C10,C2,C4,C7,C11 -> 1uF

-> Stable @ 140MHz , sporadic errors @ 150MHz - worse than Config 1 (about 10 in 2 minutes)
BUT: new memtest shows up some errors @120MHz (rest of test frequencies is fine)
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Last edited by THaase on Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby terminator2k2 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:49 am

when i did my 64MB pcb with 6tin it showed lots of errors at 120 so it may be just the memtest ?

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby THaase » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:56 am

No - Archie is having problems with 64MB 6TIN (128MHz).
As the rest is lower there are no problems.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:50 pm

THaase wrote:No - Archie is having problems with 64MB 6TIN (128MHz).

Archie (latest version) works fine on XS 2.2 64MB.
XS 1.1 64MB also may work fine with Archie but it should be very carefully soldered. According to Ricardo his XS 1.1 64MB works fine.
So i expect a lot of faulty 64MB modules not working with Archie and new Minimig. 32MB is so good, so it forgives any soldering problems, while 64MB has almost no gap to "move". XS 2.2 however works better with 64MB.
XSD 2.4 uses much better routing due to 4 layers and has solid GND and VCC planes, so i expect it work more reliably.

THaase wrote:@Sorgelig: Can you reproduce errors @120MHz at your side with -6TIN? Maybe phase related problem?

yes, i see too. I will adjust the phase for 120MHz in memtest.

Thanks for caps testing!
i use:
top: 10uf, 0.1uf, 10uf, 0.1uf
bottom: 10uf, 1uf, 1uf, 10uf, 10uf, 1uf, 1uf, 10uf

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sinclair » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:27 pm

Sorgelig wrote:Today i've soldered SDRAM XS module with 64MB SDRAM chip AS4C32M16SB-7TCN. And it passes 160MHz! Even on 167MHz it produces only 4 errors in 30 mins. Although it's 7ns chip.
There is really some magic in Alliance Memory chips!

some time ago i've tried other 64MB chip - ISSI IS42S16320D-6TL. Although it's marked as 6ns, it passes only 130MHz test. The only difference - it's standard v3.1 board, not XS. But i'm sure it will be around the same on XS too.


This is exactly the configuration of my module (XS 1.1 with AS4C32M16SB-7TCN) and it gives me in the testmem the same excellent results that it gave you.

However, after the July version of Minimig, I have only been able to run it stably with the test version SOR003 in debug phases -2 and -3 (I think by default it starts at -4).

Is this problem going to be solved or am I going to have to dispose of my valuable 64MB SDRAM module? :(

Thank you Sorgelig.
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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:27 pm

I've just released Minimig with improved timings. I'm quite confident in the phases i've set for 64MB and 128MB modules. I've tested myself and it's also tested by Ricardo Saraiva in whose quality i don't doubt. Since we got the same phase ranges regardless we soldered separately from each other, i'm sure in correct phases.
For 64MB i suggest to use XS 2.2 board. But actually i don't suggest 64MB module in general as 64MB chips require higher accuracy of soldering and 2-layer board is just "fit at the edge". 128MB uses 4-layer board and has solid vcc/gnd layers with good signal traces.
You also need to know that soldering SDRAM chips in oven or hot air isn't good idea. It degrades the chip performance. Manual soldering also need to be careful and not to heat the chip much. Cleaning from flux is also necessary.
32MB chip was quite forgiving due to high margin, while 64MB chip has no performance margin at all and needs more care.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sinclair » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:12 pm

Sorgelig wrote:I've just released Minimig with improved timings. I'm quite confident in the phases i've set for 64MB and 128MB modules. I've tested myself and it's also tested by Ricardo Saraiva in whose quality i don't doubt. Since we got the same phase ranges regardless we soldered separately from each other, i'm sure in correct phases.
For 64MB i suggest to use XS 2.2 board. But actually i don't suggest 64MB module in general as 64MB chips require higher accuracy of soldering and 2-layer board is just "fit at the edge". 128MB uses 4-layer board and has solid vcc/gnd layers with good signal traces.
You also need to know that soldering SDRAM chips in oven or hot air isn't good idea. It degrades the chip performance. Manual soldering also need to be careful and not to heat the chip much. Cleaning from flux is also necessary.
32MB chip was quite forgiving due to high margin, while 64MB chip has no performance margin at all and needs more care.



The new update of Minimig continues to give stability problems with my memory :(

On the other hand, the Memtest update gives me excellent results (160MHz sustained). My memory module, therefore, is fast so I do not understand why the updates of this core are not stable for my case.

I have no problem with other cores that use the 64MB of the SDRAM module.

The problem seems to be that the Amiga core has been pushed to the limit of the implementation to obtain a significant increase in speed, and this seems very good to me. What does not seem right to me is that it stops working in some memory modules when they are totally valid and the solution would be as simple as being able to configure the memory phase through the OSD, if it is not possible for the core to determine it automatically.
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Re: SDRAM board

Postby sofakng » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:22 pm

What 10uF caps do you guys recommend?

It looks like the Kemet 10uF (0805) caps are only rated to 10V? I'm guessing they should be fine because the SDRAM only runs around 3.3v (?)

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby THaase » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:44 pm

Sorgelig wrote:i use:
top: 10uf, 0.1uf, 10uf, 0.1uf
bottom: 10uf, 1uf, 1uf, 10uf, 10uf, 1uf, 1uf, 10uf


Thanks for sharing!
Sorgelig wrote:Archie (latest version) works fine on XS 2.2 64MB.
XS 1.1 64MB also may work fine with Archie but it should be very carefully soldered. According to Ricardo his XS 1.1 64MB works fine.


Ricardo is using 7ns version afaik.
The 7ns is also working fine - it's just the 6ns version.

Also I stated above that just the 128MB equipped with 6ns chips was making problems, while the 7ns was working fine.

I would guess that there is a difference in the needed phase between the 6ns and the 7ns versions- I have no idea about the Archie (will have a look), but I still guess that with different phase this one will also work with the 6ns version.

I would suggest not to state only the Module type and memory size but also the speed rate. Otherwise we will not find any clue at all.

So you are using the 6ns on XS2.2 - right?

I can do some further testing with 6ns and 7ns types, but not before Tuesday.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:49 pm

THaase wrote:
Sorgelig wrote:i use:
top: 10uf, 0.1uf, 10uf, 0.1uf
bottom: 10uf, 1uf, 1uf, 10uf, 10uf, 1uf, 1uf, 10uf


Thanks for sharing!
Sorgelig wrote:Archie (latest version) works fine on XS 2.2 64MB.
XS 1.1 64MB also may work fine with Archie but it should be very carefully soldered. According to Ricardo his XS 1.1 64MB works fine.


Ricardo is using 7ns version afaik.
The 7ns is also working fine - it's just the 6ns version.

Also I stated above that just the 128MB equipped with 6ns chips was making problems, while the 7ns was working fine.

I would guess that there is a difference in the needed phase between the 6ns and the 7ns versions- I have no idea about the Archie (will have a look), but I still guess that with different phase this one will also work with the 6ns version.

I would suggest not to state only the Module type and memory size but also the speed rate. Otherwise we will not find any clue at all.

So you are using the 6ns on XS2.2 - right?

I can do some further testing with 6ns and 7ns types, but not before Tuesday.


Ricardo uses -7 while i use -6. Result between us is the same or if there is a difference then meaningless.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby THaase » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:08 pm

Sorgelig wrote:Ricardo uses -7 while i use -6. Result between us is the same or if there is a difference then meaningless.


Sorry, but that's what I'm saying:

The 7ns version works fine on the XS1.1 and the 6ns version fine on the XS2.2
But this doesn't mean that the 6ns version is working fine on the XS1.1

Before you changed the phase for the memtest the 128MB Module was also causing errors (at least in memtest) when using 6ns type, but none with the 7ns type.
From electrical point of view the eye diagram using 120MHz must be better than with 150MHz.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:33 pm

120MHz failed on older memtest using 128MB module with -7 chips

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sinclair » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:55 pm

THaase wrote:
Sorgelig wrote:Ricardo uses -7 while i use -6. Result between us is the same or if there is a difference then meaningless.


Sorry, but that's what I'm saying:

The 7ns version works fine on the XS1.1 and the 6ns version fine on the XS2.2
But this doesn't mean that the 6ns version is working fine on the XS1.1

Before you changed the phase for the memtest the 128MB Module was also causing errors (at least in memtest) when using 6ns type, but none with the 7ns type.
From electrical point of view the eye diagram using 120MHz must be better than with 150MHz.


I am using an official XS 1.1 nodule with quality hand-welded 7NS type sdram (without hot air or oven) and I still have instability in Minimig and Archie cores.

I still do not understand anything.
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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:45 pm

FingerCramp wrote:Just built XSD 2.4 Board with AS4C32M16SB-7TCN

Memtest is only detecting 64mb. Using 1UF caps all the way through. Getting stable clocks aup to 150mhz.

Isn't this setup supposed to be 128MB thanks!

search the problem.. It's not possible to download the module ;) So only you can find your problems in soldering.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby FingerCramp » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:40 pm

Sorgelig wrote:search the problem.. It's not possible to download the module ;) So only you can find your problems in soldering.


Thanks! Its up and running now.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:52 am

Sinclair wrote:I am using an official XS 1.1 nodule with quality hand-welded 7NS type sdram (without hot air or oven) and I still have instability in Minimig and Archie cores.
I still do not understand anything.

128MB with 4-layer should be easier to reproduce.
Hand soldering not automatically means high quality. In most cases it's opposite, sorry.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby gojira54 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:39 am

sofakng wrote:What 10uF caps do you guys recommend?

It looks like the Kemet 10uF (0805) caps are only rated to 10V? I'm guessing they should be fine because the SDRAM only runs around 3.3v (?)


I bought RS stock 915-9328 they are 35VDC rated
Can't try anything yet, waiting for connectors on the slow boat
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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sinclair » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:10 am

Sorgelig wrote:
Sinclair wrote:I am using an official XS 1.1 nodule with quality hand-welded 7NS type sdram (without hot air or oven) and I still have instability in Minimig and Archie cores.
I still do not understand anything.

128MB with 4-layer should be easier to reproduce.
Hand soldering not automatically means high quality. In most cases it's opposite, sorry.


The welding of my module is manual and of excellent quality and I use an official PCB. In fact, the manufacturers I know weld them manually so as not to fatigue the chip.

The problem is Minimig in its latest revisions that you are putting to the limit the tolerance of 64MB memories, in fact in the last update it hardly works for almost anyone.

Apparently the 128MB memory module in 4-layer PCB gives you a similar performance to 32MB.

I fear that your intentions are to make the direct jump to 128 so that you can continue step on the accelerator of Minimig further and leave us 64 users in the dark.
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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:46 am

1) Official 64MB module is XS 2.2. XS 1.x never claimed to be official.
2) Properly and accurately soldered XS 1.1 64MB works ok as confirmed by modules soldered by me and trustful seller.
This is all i can assure.
I'm doing this project as my hobby and i'm not the seller myself, neither i'm afilated with any seller. Your accusation to me look stupid.

Use 32MB module and you won't have problem with Minimig if you can't get a good quality official 64MB module.
Minimig uses DDR3 memory and there is no advantage to use 64MB with Minimig.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sinclair » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:20 am

1. I do not accuse anyone stupidly, I refer to the facts.
2. My merory is manufactured and works perfectly.
3. The real problem is the latest version of Minimig with the 64MB modules in general and is not just mine.

I have no problem, I will continue to use my memory module with NeoGeo that works fine and the July version of Minimig that is already 50% faster than the previous versions because I don't need a new version that works 20% more even faster yet but with instability.

We appreciate your selfless dedication to the project (some of us also collaborate on it in some way) but let us also give your opinion when we see that a wrong path is being taken and hopefully I am wrong.
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Re: SDRAM board

Postby Sorgelig » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:34 pm

try all 10uf caps on 64mb module.

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby sofakng » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:18 pm

@Sorgelig, I'm sorry for asking so many questions, but what is the correct LVC1G04 part from DigiKey? I've read the PDF that you mentioned in the other thread for looking up part numbers (thanks!) but it only lists 'LVC1G04' and DigiKey offers a lot of variations?

I'm assuming this component is required?

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Re: SDRAM board

Postby gojira54 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:21 pm

sofakng wrote:@Sorgelig, I'm sorry for asking so many questions, but what is the correct LVC1G04 part from DigiKey? I've read the PDF that you mentioned in the other thread for looking up part numbers (thanks!) but it only lists 'LVC1G04' and DigiKey offers a lot of variations?

I'm assuming this component is required?


I went for this one, hope it's right there was lots of choice with similar specs :s
https://www.digikey.co.uk/products/en?k ... 35933-1-ND
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