I/O Board

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:18 pm

glaucon1984 wrote:Yes, that's why I commented about the 3rd picture in the link, there is a bridge of micro-B connectors so the hub would go just on top.
Image

Looks not bad.

but with i/o board 4.x there is no much space left for this board. With I/O board 5.0 even smaller space will remain. I've used the max length allowing to order the board at discount price from most Chinese manufacturers.

But, if USB HUB is slim enough, it can be placed under the main board. So, it's still possible. Also, there are tiny pads on U26 on the main board where +D and -D signals are exposed. So, with enough experience it's possible to solder there and you won't need to use external bridge board.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby mpattonm » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Sorgelig wrote:finally found the place for SD card:
Image
upload free

Impressive!
As far as I remeber you have mentioned you are running out of free space on recent revs of PCBs. If I understand last 3D model correctly, you have based your layouts around 40mm fan? One of the options would be to chose some smaller one then. For example, Sunnon makes MC25100V2-000U-A99 25x25mm fan with 16dB noise level and performance I guess could be sufficient to cool down the FPGA with some heatsing attached. Its quite available on the market too.
Regarding the VGA port connector, full sized one is of course easy to get, but certainly takes lot of space. There is a laptop alternative available on EU/US market, at least at Mouser, TME and I guess digikey, the AMPHENOL L177HDE15SD0CH4RBLHF. It has different pinout then the one required for 2.7 rev board though.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:49 pm

Bigger fan needs lower rotation to provide the same air flow. So, switching to smaller fan will make it harder to keep quietness.
As you can see, full sized VGA and 40mm fan are already fit, so there is no point to replace them in current design.

here is small update to fit 2 kinds of buttons:
iobrd_50a.png
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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:26 am

Speaking about buttons: i found this 12mm x 12mm interesting button in local store:
20170907_181730.jpg

So, it can be used directly as external button with simple hole in top surface of case.

I'm also planning to change SOG switch to following one:
20170907_182126.jpg

It uses 2mm spacing instead of 2.54. So, i will need to change the holes. It still possible to replace by jumpers. Just use 2mm jumpers instead of 2.54mm.
P/N: SGC-22NP-04V
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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby mpattonm » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:11 am

Sorgelig wrote:I'm also planning to change SOG switch to following one:
It uses 2mm spacing instead of 2.54. So, i will need to change the holes. It still possible to replace by jumpers. Just use 2mm jumpers instead of 2.54mm.
P/N: SGC-22NP-04V

This seems like hard to find part (except for on Aliexpress of course). Same goes for 2mm pitch pinheaders. Certainly, no local store in my area keeps these on stock. C&K, NINIGI,ALPS, IC switches,... they all have plenty of standard DPDT rocker switches to chose from with 2,54mm pitch.
Like the one on the picture, costs 50 cents.
Just saying.
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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:28 am

It's ok to order online when you order many different components. But if you need to order only couple switches - they will be too expensive because of shipment.
Well, i will look for more options.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:55 am

i'm looking on rs-online.com - there are lot of switches with 2mm spacing in group and 2.54mm between groups. So you have big choice of many different switches with same spacing.

Here is another part number of the same switch - MFP213N-RA:
http://twen.rs-online.com/web/p/slide-switches/7023754/

Why this switch is good? it has long stick - almost 4mm! So any case can be used. Other slide switches have short stick and you will need to use screw driver to switch it.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:53 am

I've just received PCB I/O Board v4.1. Everything looks fine including the circle cutout.
So i've released it.

Keep in mind, there is v5.x in development which includes secondary SD card.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby nightshadowpt » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:37 pm

Hi,

Are you considering adding new USB ports to the I/O Board? (or even MIDI ports?).

This is the only thing missing for this to be much better than the MiST in every way possible.

Thanks.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:37 pm

nightshadowpt wrote:Hi,
Are you considering adding new USB ports to the I/O Board? (or even MIDI ports?).

USB?? There is already USB. Connect the hub and get more USB ports.
MIDI - there should be the core supporting the midi. Currently there is no such core. Anyway, it's very specific thing only for few users who has MIDI synthesizers. I don't have. There are free GPIO ports available on Arduino header, so someone who is familaiar with MIDI can make add-on board (and write the core).

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:39 pm

some porn from v5.1:

iobrd_5.1_top.png

iobrd_5.1_bottom.png
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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby nightshadowpt » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:37 am

Sorgelig wrote:USB?? There is already USB. Connect the hub and get more USB ports.


Yes I know that I can plug in a USB Hub, but if we ever want to see the MiSTer as a "product" like the MiST and not just an enthusiast project, should this not be considered?

How else will we ever build a case to fit the MiSTer if everyone uses their own USB hub?

Maybe the effort of including additional USB ports to the I/O board is too big for something that has such a simple solution, but I believe this would help the MiSTer to be considered the true MiST successor.

Anyway, love the new board pics.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:30 am

nightshadowpt wrote:Yes I know that I can plug in a USB Hub, but if we ever want to see the MiSTer as a "product" like the MiST and not just an enthusiast project, should this not be considered?

How else will we ever build a case to fit the MiSTer if everyone uses their own USB hub?

Maybe the effort of including additional USB ports to the I/O board is too big for something that has such a simple solution, but I believe this would help the MiSTer to be considered the true MiST successor.

Anyway, love the new board pics.

I/O board is connected to FPGA part while USB is connected to ARM part. There is no way to add another USB controller since board doesn't have high speed bus like PCI or similar.

You exaggerating your wish way too much. There are many USB OTG cable-type hubs like these:
Image
If you think internal USB HUB on MiST is most important feature then i suggest to forget about MiSTer and use MiST instead.
If you think i want to promote and aggressively advertise the MiSTer, then you are wrong. I get nothing from this project. It's just my hobby. Will you use MiST or MiSTer is completely no difference to me. I like the features of MiSTer. It outperform MiST in every aspect. Putting internal HUB in front of all those great features MiSTer has looks very funny to me.
It's open source project. If you think there something very important is missing then make it by yourself and contribute to the project. Whining won't drive the project anywhere.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby nightshadowpt » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:02 pm

Hi Sorgelig,

To make it clear, my intention was to discuss a feature I felt was important for a project I am enthusiastic about, not whine. I regret you read it that way and I apologize for it.

I would rather have you believe I have the project's best interest at heart (even if I am wrong) rather than assuming I have the worst intention and that I'm here just to nag and whine.

I may not have the technical skills to contribute to this project the same way you do, but I would like to contribute to it nonetheless. If you feel this is detrimental to the project, then I will just shut up and become a regular spectator.

Anyway I still believe in this project and wish it to succeed. Thank you for driving this forward and for all the hard work you have done.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby kolla » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:27 pm

MIDI is just a slightly modified serial port, should be easy to build and add.
-- kolla

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby glaucon1984 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:16 am

Sorgelig wrote:it's very specific thing only for few users who has MIDI synthesizers.


Actually, you can easily use a Windows laptop/tablet running Munt (open source Roland MT-32 emulator) S-YXG50 (Yamaha XG) or SoundFonts. You just need a USB -> Midi adaptor. Look for "Ultimate MIDI Emulator for DOS Games" in YouTube, in this channel, "Phil's Computer Lab", there are very good resources about the topic.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:03 am

I think, creator of MiST (Till) is big fan of MIDI - that's why he added it to the MiST as standard feature. Actually, MIDI is not in retro category. It belongs to professional music standard and is used on many platforms in very specific niche area. Old systems had MIDI ports but it doesn't mean it exactly should be presented in any emulator system. Also MIDI requires very low latency so it won't affect the playing experience. Anyway, it's completely different area not related to retro at all. It still available in modern platforms like Windows and doesn't require emulation.

I'm not against if someone will add another expansion board with MIDI, but i'm not going to make it by myself because it's not interesting to me at all. DE10-nano still have free 13 FPGA GPIOs on Arduino header and it's easily accessible on latest I/O board. Thus, anyone is willing to add another expansion board and specific core supporting the MIDI is welcome. Just talk to me first so proper GPIOs will be reserved for this function. Probably this board can add shared RS232/MIDI ports to make it more universal.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Newsdee » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:24 pm

For the sake of backwards compatibility, how about reserving those pins now? That needs no work other thab a decision. ;)

MIDI is a very cool use of FPGA (IMHO) especially since the ST was very famous with musicians. RS232 could also help communicate with older hardware (and is also present on MiST by removing the MIDI expansion).

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby mpattonm » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:40 pm

I could eventually design that addon. But certainly not in nearest month, I have been working on other major projects.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:21 pm

Here is the MiSTer with all latest add-ons:
mister_1.png

mister-2.png


I have an idea with future less generic expansions. The Arduino header visible above should be exposed through case(if any) but not protrude. There you can find 13 GPIOs and additional 3.3V and 5V socket at the same row (3 additional pins above arduino). Case should be less or equal 2.54mm of thickness, so expansion board will be plugged on top of case and can be easily replaced by other custom expansion depending on core.
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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby nightshadowpt » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:42 am

I love how tight the design is looking. Great job Sorgelig.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Newsdee » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:04 am

I spy a battery slot at the bottom. Is that for an RTC?

Also I wonder if you could make the board slightly longer so it can be screwed to the other side as well? Its purely esthetic so I suppose you have your reasons not to... (cheaper?)

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby mpattonm » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:21 am

Overall, very nice piece of design job However, I (personally) still have some doubts about a choice of 40mm fan. Please let me explain.
First of all, I would like to say that I have zero interest on what the final board will look like, it is certainly yours and only yours decision. I am not planning to manufacture and sell any new rev. boards either, certainly not in forseeable future. My involvement ends as soon as I deplete current components inventory and that only goes for my current stock of 2.7 PCBs.

Now back to 40mm fan choice: Looking at previous renders of some 4.x or perhaps 5.x PCBs you posted earlier, it seems to me that the PCB will partially block active fan area to some extent (the air flow cutout is not in full circle). Without an access to the source data I can only estimate that about 30-40% of effective airflow area would be blocked like that.
I also assume, that due to requirement for future expansion, maximal height of fan is limited toperhaps 13 mm.
Therfore, I am gonna compare two 5V DC fans that fall into such cathegory and I would probably have chose for the design and build:

SUNON EB40100S2-000U-999:
40x40x10mm; 11,9m3/h; 27dBA; slide bearing, about 3 EUR/pc
SUNON MC25100V2-000U-A99:
25x25x10mm; 5,1m3/h; 16dBA; Vapo technology, about 6 EUR/pc

Please note that Sunon does not have ball bearing fan in 40x40x10 mm, which really is mass product cathegory, while 25x25mm fan are provided with Vapo technology. Vapo is recognised as superior to former one and of course we all know weaknes of slide bearings. That on the other hand explains the price difference that I believe is well justified in this case.

Anyway, knowing you block lets say 35% of effective airflow with PCB, 40x40 fan would only push about 7,2m3 of air per hour. On the other hand, 25x25 fan would push 5,1 m3 of air per hour. The difference is some 30 percent.
Most importantly is what that PCB block to the airflow on 40x40 solution would do to noice and fan lifespan. Of course I have not done any calculations or measurements, but I can guarantie they both will be impacted severly. In result, 40x40 fan will certainly not have 27 dBA noice level as per spec, it will be far worse. And 27dBA fan is one of the lowest value fan I could pick in that cathegory.
Mechanical aspect of that airflow blockage will be that the air whirls will cause fan to vibrate, severly decreasing fan lifespan and slowly killing all the onboard connections and causing stress to all (especally) BGA components.

Frankly speaking, I do not even think, that having any kind of fan screwed up directly to the PCB is a good idea at all. Certainly not without some silicone vibration dampers.

Just saying.
Pavel

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:25 am

Newsdee wrote:I spy a battery slot at the bottom. Is that for an RTC?

Also I wonder if you could make the board slightly longer so it can be screwed to the other side as well? Its purely esthetic so I suppose you have your reasons not to... (cheaper?)


RTC addon is on design stage - i don't have the board yet.
I would like to have the board covering all 4 holes, but i don't do this because of PCB manufacturers limit the special offers by 100mm x 100mm. So, in v5.x the board reached the 100mm already.
Price for 10pcs under 100x100 size is 5USD (some mfg offer even 2USD!).
Price for 10pcs 107x70 (DE10-nano size) is 30USD.
Are 7mm worth 25USD difference? I don't think so. Board is secured pretty tight because of 2 screws and 40pin header. This connector and ethernet connector are at the same level as standoffs, so board is aligned correctly already. So, i prefer to keep it under special price.

Board source files are available and anyone can extent it to cover all 4 holes if money is not an issue.

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Re: I/O Board thread

Postby gagadagatika » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:27 am

Newsdee wrote:I spy a battery slot at the bottom. Is that for an RTC?

Also, I wonder if you could make the board slightly longer so it can be screwed to the other side as well? It's purely esthetic so I suppose you have your reasons, not to... (cheaper?)


Just compared the costs. it would drive the board price up by 2.19 USD if you buy 10 PCBs. This goes down if bought in higher batches:

10 PCBs = +2,19 USD
20 PCBs = +1.29 USD

Image

I will probably buy 20 Boards when I make them for others, so the impact wouldn't be too high for me/them. This is different for people who just want to make one board for themselves. They would pay for 5 boards about 21 USD which is 10x higher as the normal price.


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