MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby ex68k » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:16 pm

Sorgelig wrote:
ex68k wrote:Did you try already, or is it just a guess?

may be it's just for fun i've went through 6 versions of SDRAM board and spent a lot of money instead of try on board DDR3.


I asked nicely ;-)

Care to elaborate, how close you got on the DDR3 version?

Sorgelig wrote:
ex68k wrote:I know it wouldn't be easy, but then you have also the HDMI connected on the DDR3, which would allow much nicer resolutions and handling of newer monitors. Yes, and porting of the other MIST software would be also a pain in the neck, but isn't it worth it?

every my core outputs in 1280x720p60


bits per pixel?

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby kolla » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:48 pm

I imagine, for example for Amiga, emulating CPU on the ARM, with chipset implemented on FPGA is an option? If so, DDR3 RAM for "fast ram", and SDRAM for chipram? :)
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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:19 pm

<del>
Last edited by Sorgelig on Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:22 pm

ex68k wrote:Care to elaborate, how close you got on the DDR3 version?

it doesn't matter how close. Either it can or cannot. And it's impossible to make it faster or slower. If, for example ZX core cannot simulate original timings, it doesn't matter how bad some demos are. They are simply bad.

ex68k wrote:bits per pixel?

standard 24bits per pixel.

kolla wrote:I imagine, for example for Amiga, emulating CPU on the ARM, with chipset implemented on FPGA is an option? If so, DDR3 RAM for "fast ram", and SDRAM for chipram? :)

it's possible, but depends on core's author willing.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Newsdee » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:28 am

I got my board! Not much time to play with it yet, other than the little web server it has. It's neat to play with the LEDs from a browser.

I would say it's very tiny and I'm worried about breaking a connector. It would benefit from a nice case and hiding all direct plugs (e.g. external HDMI connector with a cable connecting to the board) .

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby NML32 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:11 am

Does the DE10-nano come with a power supply? I forgot to check when I ordered one the other day.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Newsdee » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:10 am

NML32 wrote:Does the DE10-nano come with a power supply? I forgot to check when I ordered one the other day.
Yes, 5V 2Amp. Pretty easy to replace anyway.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:37 am

I've released design files and gerber for boards:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardware_MiSTer

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:40 am

Newsdee wrote:I would say it's very tiny and I'm worried about breaking a connector. It would benefit from a nice case and hiding all direct plugs (e.g. external HDMI connector with a cable connecting to the board) .

Micro USB connector looks fragile and needs to be careful with it. Especially Terasic decided to use pretty crappy connector where plug is not fully inserted.
Other connectors look solid to me.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:48 am

What haven't been done in MiSTer is port of Atari ST core. I hope some one can do this because i'm completely off of Atari scene.
Probably some tweaks in firmware will be required because this part hasn't been tested after porting from MiST.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby bernouilli » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:52 am

@sorgelig : about the choice to use sdram instead of the built-in ddr. Can you explain what is the difference between the two kind of ram and how it is easier to program the fpga to use outside sdram that to use the built in ddr ? Because when I try to understand the differences between the two, I get that ddr is a kind of sdram but with data transfert occuring on both rising and falling clock, and that the ddr provides much faster transfert rate.
About accessing the ddr, I know that you have to first lock a row and then retreive the data from that row and release the row before opening another raw. But there a lot of already ddr verilog drivers that are ready to use.
The amount of built-in ddr is bigger than the external sdram and is already there.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:31 am

Built-in DDR3 memory has hardware controller and it's shared between ARM and FPGA. On FPGA side you have a nice convenient interface which is close to SRAM interface. So you don't have to worry about SDRAM complexity at all. Also you don't need to worry about refresh. Everything is done automatically on hardware level.
So, from first sight, it looks exciting. Evil comes when you start to use it. Soon you will realize that response time is pretty bad. Response time is not stable and varying from acceptable to unacceptable ranges, so even ZX Spectrum on standard 3.5MHz speed cannot be implemented.
Retro systems have used Asynchronous EDO DRAM. Although it was slow RAM, it provided a fixed access time for any RAM cell. Starting from SDR SDRAM chips started to use a burst transfer where access to a single cell takes almost the same time as access to 4-8 sequential cells. If system is optimized to access to a group of cells then it's much faster with SDRAM. Manufacturers started to rate the speed based on burst access and show a very big numbers like 10-20 times faster, but random access remained at the same level as old Async.DRAM.. So, if system access the RAM randomly by single cells then SDRAM is not faster at all. It even can be slower because requires a lot of clock cycles from starting access to get a first data.
When memory migrated from SDR to DDR, the burst became even longer and more cycles required to get the data. Thus even DDR3 on DE10-nano has whooping 800MHz clock, it's slower than DRAM on old good ZX Spectrum in terms of random single cell access :)

While relatively old SDR SDRAM also has same problem, it's still faster than DDR3 with random access. So, SDR SDRAM is still useful for many tasks where DDR cannot fit. That's why still many FPGA boards from Terasic have SDR SDRAM additionally to DDR SDRAM.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:45 am

DDR3 still has its useful potential. Some systems are not tied to exact RAM timings. Such systems usually can have different CPUs on board and thus RAM speed from CPU point of view is varying. These systems are Amiga (only for Fast RAM), PC.
So, Amiga(minimig) can get a big boost from DDR3 if core will be tweaked to use it. But minimig will still require SDR SDRAM for Chip RAM because it's used for video and other chips access, so timings for Chip RAM are fixed and cannot be violated. As for FastRAM - there are no predefined timings and can vary in great range. Thus DDR3 with cache can be used to emulate FastRAM. And Mininig can get 256MB(or more) of FastRAM.
Same goes to PC emulator.

Some systems have expanded memories where access time either is very slow or wait states can be added without breaking compatibility. In this case DDR3 also can be used. Example is FPGAGen (Sega Genesis) where i implemented the core without SDR SDRAM at all. Main FPGAGen memory is implemented on FPGA BRAM and cartridge memory is implemented on DDR3.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby bernouilli » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:02 pm

ok, thanks for these explanations.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby NML32 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:20 pm

I'm happy to report I got my DE10-nano and OTG hub today. I did a quick setup, and everything seems to be working. It's true about the boot speed; the menu is up before my monitor shows video.
USB keyboard and USB iBuffalo joypad worked fine. Just thought I'd report this since I saw someone was having issues getting their USB devices to register through MiSTer

Edit: My first test was on a 10" HDMI monitor (no sound). Now that I moved the DE10-nano to my Samsung HD LCD TV I hear a humming sound during game play when there is sound. I still hear the game sound, but I also hear in the background a humming sound. I tried fpgagen, C64, and ZX Spectrum all do the same thing.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:27 am

NML32 wrote:USB keyboard and USB iBuffalo joypad worked fine. Just thought I'd report this since I saw someone was having issues getting their USB devices to register through MiSTer

thanks for report!

NML32 wrote:My first test was on a 10" HDMI monitor (no sound).

Does this monitor supports HDMI audio originally?

NML32 wrote:Now that I moved the DE10-nano to my Samsung HD LCD TV I hear a humming sound during game play when there is sound. I still hear the game sound, but I also hear in the background a humming sound. I tried fpgagen, C64, and ZX Spectrum all do the same thing.

How loud this humming is? Is this humming all the time or only when DE10 produce the sound?

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:30 am

By the way, for those who already use MiSTer: don't forget to update MiSTer and Menu binaries to latest versions! I'm updating them often.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Newsdee » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:34 am

Genesis core works great. I really like being able to remap controllers on the fly :) I need to try with adapters for legacy controllers.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:37 am

I'm thinking to let joy buttons definition per core.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby NML32 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:39 am

Sorgelig wrote:
NML32 wrote:USB keyboard and USB iBuffalo joypad worked fine. Just thought I'd report this since I saw someone was having issues getting their USB devices to register through MiSTer

thanks for report!

NML32 wrote:My first test was on a 10" HDMI monitor (no sound).

Does this monitor supports HDMI audio originally?

NML32 wrote:Now that I moved the DE10-nano to my Samsung HD LCD TV I hear a humming sound during game play when there is sound. I still hear the game sound, but I also hear in the background a humming sound. I tried fpgagen, C64, and ZX Spectrum all do the same thing.

How loud this humming is? Is this humming all the time or only when DE10 produce the sound?


My 10" monitor doesn't support sound.

The humming is pretty loud and only seems to hum when the DE10 produces sound.
Last edited by NML32 on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:58 am

weird.. may be TV doesn't support the audio format produced by core? Cores don't parse EDID info but set output formats blindly.
I will need to gather more info about this issue. I've realized i didn't try my Yamaha receiver with DE10-nano yet :)

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Newsdee » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:14 am

By the way does the file select allow changing to another storage device? I'm tempted to try with a Retrode if so (real carts!)

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:52 am

Dynamic switch between SD and USB is not supported.

What is Retrode and how device switch affects it?

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby fury23 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:04 pm

Sorgelig wrote:I've released design files and gerber for boards:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardware_MiSTer


Thanks, can you recommend where to order PCBs?

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Re: MiSTer: MiST on Terasic DE10-nano board.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:13 pm

fury23 wrote:
Sorgelig wrote:I've released design files and gerber for boards:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardware_MiSTer


Thanks, can you recommend where to order PCBs?


You can find my recommendations there in readme.


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